Meet Nirupa Konijeti, founder and host of Bazaar Supper Club and Bazaar Butter, a monthly supper club held in her Brooklyn apartment, where she gathers ~18 people for a delicious family-style feast and deep, intentional conversation. With a 10,000+ person waitlist for her dinners, Nirupa’s dream of creating a community she envisioned stemmed from a pivotal moment in 2023, when she got laid off from her job, a day after manifesting freedom in a vision board exercise. From scrambling to finding a new job to getting creative with tapping into her childhood dream of working with food, Nirupa shares how she experimented to see what would stick to continue to grow and evolve what became the initial versions of what would eventually become Bazaar Supper Club in 2024. Above all else, she’s learned that being her authentic self, showing up with her why, and welcoming folks of all walks of life to build intentional community not only instills confidence but also enables her to become a better villager. After all, in Nirupa’s words, to build a village, you must become a villager.

Interviewed in January 2026 | This conversation has been edited for clarity and brevity. Heads up, the interview contains some explicit language that may not be suitable for all audiences.

Tell us a bit about yourself. I’m Nirupa. I’m in my thirties, and I work in food. A second part of me works in finance, but I primarily want to be seen as someone exploring her creative pursuits and trying to make her inner child happy. That’s my only mission in life right now.

I grew up in South India for 20-ish years and spent the last 10 in the States. These last 10 years have been me building my life from scratch, and as a child of immigrants.

2025 has been my most transformative year. I want to tell the story of how you can truly change the trajectory of your life if you throw your all at it.

Let’s start by picking a moment in time to help us understand why 2025 was a super transformative year for you. Three years ago today, I was working as a Product Manager at a tech startup, and I was so miserable. I was not happy, and I also felt very trapped doing what I was doing. I had made a vision board, and one of the messages was a woman sitting on a farm with a dog. It was alluding to freedom. And the next morning, I got laid off. The universe handed me what I was hoping for, but I was not ready for it.

On the surface, my focus was survival. Find another job. Stay in the country. Keep things moving. But underneath that, something much deeper had started to shift.

That period changed how I saw everything, especially the idea of “community.” I started to notice who showed up, how they showed up, and also where things felt misaligned. It was more of a quiet realization that the version of support I needed didn’t always match the relationships I had built up until that point.

And as an immigrant, that realization hit differently. When you build a life far away from home, you place a lot of meaning on the people around you. You want that sense of chosen family. You want a village. What I learned was that a village isn’t something you just find. It’s something you build. And if you want a village, you have to be a villager.

So I started there. I began looking beyond the circles I had known, staying open to new people, new spaces, new ways of connecting. I didn’t fully know what I was looking for, just that I was ready to build something that felt more aligned with who I was becoming.

And that search ended up changing the entire direction of my life.

When I was growing up in India, I had a strong inclination towards food. I just never had a chance for it to take off when I finished college in 2014. I went to my dad and told him I wanted to be a pastry chef, and he basically said, “Absolutely not.” That dream got killed right there. I didn’t have enough background to support the ask, so I just let it slide and never picked it up.

I came to the States, built a career in tech, and I’m very happy with what I did with that. But I always felt like I had something I never fully explored sitting in my backpocket.

And so, when the layoff happened, I had about six months of free time between jobs that I could truly use the way I wanted my days to look. My time was all mine, and that was when I was asking myself, “What do I want to do?” I have this deep idea of community, and also this dream of food that I never got a chance to explore fully. How do I bridge these two things together and try something out?

That was also when I started noticing a big shift in third spaces within New York. I did a lot of research for a month or two, looking at all the different third spaces, and I noticed there were not enough. I wanted to create one. That was the first pivotal observation I had: to create a third space with food and people. And specifically, how was that going to shapeshift dinner parties? That was the idea where dinner parties came to me.

Now, onto execution. Like, who the hell is going to come to my dinners? I’m just an average cook living in New York. So, I started FaceTiming my mom and made her teach me all her recipes, and I retrained myself as a cook because I had time in my day.

I also started looking into what platforms I could use to host dinner parties. I tested out a couple of third-party platforms, like Airbnb Experiences. I did that for a while, hosting tourists visiting New York. But they weren’t grounded in New York. Correct. But I needed to exercise my skills.

I bought foldable tables, plates, and glasses, and I started by teaching cooking classes. I even went up to my building management because they sometimes host events for residents. I noticed that they could do more. So, I went up to them and said, “I live in the building, and I have this idea.” They said, “Do it.” Wait, I love that! And so, they were paying me to throw events for the building community. It was also a great way for me to practice. I did that for a couple of months, and it was me throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what stuck.

Bazaar Butter

My Entire Dinner Party Collection — What I Actually Use for 18 Guests

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5 months ago · 19 likes · 1 comment · Bazaar Butter

Then, I decided to pivot to dinner parties. I wanted to take it back to people sitting around a dining table with no end time. With dining in New York, you typically get 90 minutes. I wanted something in my house, curated by me. When you cook something with your hands, there’s already so much love in it. When you put people around that... add a lot of warmth, play music, let people be themselves, you’re creating an environment that is very hard to come by.

I started doing the dinner parties around July 2023. I tested three a month, and I was nervous. I was shaking in my legs! I thought everything was going to go wrong. But you know what? They worked out fine. And, I got excellent feedback. That helped me get better and better and better.

So all of 2023, I was hosting test concepts through platforms like Airbnb Experiences, Dinner with Friends and I never had any social presence the entire time. I was doing everything behind the camera. You were experimenting and getting experience. I was very shy about showing my face and telling my story.

But 2024 came by, and that was when I thought, you know what, I need to put my face and a name to this. I went word searching for a bit. For some reason, I had the word “Bazaar” somewhere in my head. A bazaar is a spice market. We use this word a lot in India. There’s always someone saying, “Oh, I’m going to the bazaar to pick up stuff.” And so, I said, let’s go with that.

I created my first Instagram page in February 2024, and it had zero followers for a very long time. I was mostly taking pictures of scenes from the dinner table and of people at the dinner. I did that for a couple of months, and the page was very stagnant.

I used to post on Reddit, and people would flag me down and say, “You can’t promote your business.” I’ve had some dinner guests come from Reddit from seeing those posts. They thought it was a total scam, but they actually came and loved it.

Then I noticed: how would it be if I were actually to tell my own story in a 60-second format? And I was terrified of doing that because we’re all very judgmental about how we sound and look on camera, and cringe about our own voices.

I went through that whole phase for about 6 months. Beginning in February and all of 2024, I was experimenting with making content behind the scenes of my dinner parties, scenes, and nights of the dinners, and the page was slowly growing and reaching a very small audience, but not at the pace I wanted.

Here I was, thinking about how to spread the word in New York. I was under the assumption that if some publication discovers me, they’ll feature me in a newspaper, and that’s how the word spreads. I was reaching out to a lot of publications to see if they’d be interested in picking up the story. No one did.

Then I reached out to food content creators. So many of them... but didn’t hear back. One or two people said yes. I had my first creator come and recap her whole experience in New York around November 23 or 24, and that made a bit of noise, which was good and helped. That’s when I was like, “Oh shit, you know, like if you tell a story in a certain way, people will start observing your story.”

And I just didn’t know how to story tell the whole time. I was very uncomfortable. I tried to put my face out there even more. The more I did it, the more I noticed that people wanted to connect. People don’t want to connect with a tablecloth, a placemat, or a plate. I noticed a reaction from the audience: “Oh, she’s a real person behind the screen... so let me see what she has to say.” I kept building and tried content for a whole year, and it didn’t really stick.

But, enter 2025. April 2025 was when I made a scrappy video while I was having a really bad day (it was a bad anxiety attack), and I was trying everything to take my mind off of it....and just hit post on the video. You’re just powering through it, it’s wild! And that video was the one that went crazy overnight.

This reel was me explaining what happens when I convert my apartment into a restaurant. I invite 18 strangers in, cook all this food, and do it because I want to find out who I am outside of my nine-to-five. And that this is me challenging myself to build a life. There was a lot of audience resonance. And I’ve gotten hundreds of messages from people across the entire world saying, “This is me right now. I’m glad you’re taking this risk, and I want to do it too.” There was something emotional about the message that hit people. This is all of us on a regular day, thinking about all these things. We never say them. This was my first video that went viral. I was very lucky, and it doesn’t happen to everyone. I’m very thankful.

It feels like that was the universe’s biggest slap in my face, saying, “I am pushing you in this direction. Pursue it now. Go do it now.” The universe was literally, metamorphically, pushing me out and saying, “You’re done with that shit. Be yourself. Explore!” To me, that was the explosive overnight growth. I had maybe 2,000 followers, and the next morning I woke up to 10,000. It was crazy. Oh my god! What world does that happen in? Your world! Whoever is up there was pushing me in a different world, saying, “I’m putting you on this path. Now go do it.” And the fact that you answered and said, “Ok, I’ll do it.”

Something changed in my brain when that happened. I was like, there’s something here. I’m going to give it my all and keep pursuing that, sharing a lot more content.

Honestly, people love stories. People love seeing people figure things out in real time. They actually want to see someone going through the process. They don’t like anything where it’s just a beautiful aesthetic video. None of that matters.

I’ve tried making content of all kinds. I’ve tried making content with a very expensive camera and with my phone, which has a shitty, smudgy screen. The one that always works is telling a very, very authentic story from your own voice. And it’s genuinely something that you want to share and be a part of the conversation. Yes, and the more you talk about it: the things you’re uncomfortable about...people will find you real because we’re all uncomfortable to some degree at our core.

People don’t talk about it online because they don’t want to show the uncomfortable parts. Instagram is just a highlight reel. You don’t want to show the “non-highlights.” Why not? If anything, that’s the only real part of what’s left behind, so why not embrace it? I’m still figuring it out. I still feel like this whole world of being seen by so many eyes is fairly new to me. It happened less than a year ago, but I am so thankful that it happened and it came my way. It’s putting me on my path, and I have to give it my all to see what is out there for me. That’s why this last year was so instrumental.

I met so many people and made some solid friends through Bazaar. One of them was a guest from a dinner party in December 2024. She and I are very tight right now, and I would’ve never met these people if that didn’t happen. That is the power of female friendships.

As you evolve as a person, you meet people who are also feeling and going through the same. It’s just so beautiful to find people who are evolving as you go. I had to see that for myself to have a different perspective on life. Hopefully, it’s something that continues to last, because we were talking about this beforehand: we’re on a journey where we’re trying not necessarily to find ourselves, because we know who we are. It’s more about whether we answer “yes” or “no” to the path ahead.

It’s more about continuing to open the door for our inner child and our current selves to meet us where we are, in this older version of ourselves. And to genuinely connect back with ourselves, to then share that with our community.

What was last year [2025] like for you? What were a few highlights? I worked with some of my dream brand partners in 2025. My first dream brand partnership was with KitchenAid. Since I was 18, my dream has been to have a KitchenAid stand mixer in my kitchen. I was obsessed with that shit. I used to watch every cooking show, and they all had KitchenAids.

Fast forward to 2025: someone behind the screen saw me and said, “I want her to talk about KitchenAid.” Wow! That is, one of the biggest pieces of proof in my entire life. I started working on brand partnerships last year and earning revenue, which I didn’t know existed. I broke my first six figures with brand partnerships last year, which is insane. That’s amazing. Holy shit! That gave me so much confidence that, number one, the money aside, brands are even looking at you to say, “Let’s have Leslie tell our story. Let’s have Nirupa share our story.” It’s just so fun. And that was from June to the end of 2025.

I worked with a handful of brands, but KitchenAid was my first, and it’s my dream partnership. That to me is still like a pinch-me moment. And I worked with them twice. The second time was the recent dinner I hosted with them. That’s amazing. I remember, as a guest at that dinner, seeing how that partnership connected for you and the joy you got from being in that space. There was a full kitchen, and so you were truly physically able to “walk into” a dream partnership because it was a space that you could cook out of, that you could host people out of, and that wasn’t in your apartment, but a third space for you outside of your own. It became a third space for a community you already manifested and created, which is really, really cool to see. Absolutely. So that’s highlight number one.

Highlight number two was becoming my most confident self. There’s no way to measure this, but last year, a lot of people asked, “How are you so confident?” I am not an innately confident person at all. You also get confidence by action. Last year, I put myself out there so much, and it gave me so much back.

I grew a lot as a person last year as well. All this work I put into building a community led to a very close group of female friendships that have evolved, and I’ve matured with them. I’m very happy and hold them dear to my heart. And I am at my most confident version right now and it’ll keep getting better. That’s one of the biggest highlights that I could talk about that I can’t put a number behind.

Would you say the confidence came from proving to yourself that you can do it? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I feel like you’re competitive with yourself. You want to be the better version of yourself in any way possible. And it’s never been about,” I want to be better than this other person or this other thing.” You’re more like, “I know I’m good, but I’m not sure yet. But let me try, put some action behind it, and prove that hypothesis for myself. And if I can see it, it can happen.”

I’ve never said these words out loud, but that’s honestly the truth behind it. My life changed so quickly in such a short period of time that sometimes I have to take a minute to think, “Oh, wow... like all of that unfolded in less than 12 or 15 months.” There’s a lot of being prepared to receive luck in the world, but at the same time, you have to embrace it. Just go for it. I just did it, and I did it in a very messy way. In truth, that is the most real thing that I have said out loud in my entire life.

And you’re right, I’m a competitive person, and I get very competitive with myself. The sad part about it is that when you work in social media, you always see highlights. It’s very easy to feel like, “Am I doing enough?” You have to battle that fear every single day, and it’s not easy. You can choose to ignore it and focus on enjoying life. I want to document the process, and I’m going to work hard. I’m going to make money. I’m going to help people and build this container (community) in the process. Those are my goals.

I also want to enjoy myself and not feel like it’s a job. And... make money if I can. And build a really, really powerful community because I came from not having one, and I really want that. That’s my constant north star.

I love it. I see the vision, and I see it happening in real time for you right now. You and I sitting here came out of that north star and vision! Yes, because you and I put ourselves out there.

Bringing it back to what you said about being open and receiving luck, is that by being open to focusing on just doing the thing and letting it happen, it allows the universe to connect you to your path. I’ve personally always been very resistant, and lately it’s been about slowly unlocking it for myself. Let me do the thing, and if it happens, it happens. Great. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t, and that’s fine. But when it does happen, let me embrace it.

You’re a great example of being open to it. As much as you might not think you are, it’s actually manifested in so many great things so far and will continue to do so—which is a very hard thing for, maybe a blanket statement, but immigrants and children of immigrants to embrace, especially for those of us who have had parents who live really hard lives and try and give their children, like us, good experiences in the future.

Sometimes luck can seem scary because it doesn’t feel real. What I realized is that now, in our lives here, it’s up to us to decide which path we want to take. Because so much of our parents, our ancestors, and our families have given us to be able to arrive at this point...it’s now up to us to say, “Yes, I want to take this opportunity. Yes, I will receive this luck. Yes, I’m going to do this thing.”

To honor what and who has come before us, we also need to honor what’s ahead of us. I very much see that it’s in the path you’re on, and I hope for me too.

You’re already on it, girl! Sometimes it takes someone else to actually observe and say it because something you said was that you’re not trying to prove anything wrong. You’re trying to prove yourself. I never said that to myself, but seeing you actually put that in words, I’m realizing that’s probably what’s happening.

Confidence comes from action. But also, that nothing is truly out of reach for any of us. That’s another mental shift that I’ve had in my brain over the last year. I can sit here and have the most absurd dream and think it’s totally in my reach. Call that being delusional, but I’m just operating that way from last year. And when you operate that way, your brain gets rewired to look at the positives and look for opportunities in every little corner.

What are you most excited about in the next 3 to 6 months? One big tactical change is that I’m going to quit my job. I’m quitting my job! I’m going to keep saying it until my brain gets rewired. That’s going to happen. That’s going to be a big career change, working full-time in the creative space, which I have never, ever attempted. That’s going to be a big change. You’re already doing it half the time! Half the time.

I feel a lot more comfortable now that I’m doing a version of it, but now I get to do so much more. I’ll have all this time now to do all the things I just never had the time for, and to let my brain live creatively, fully.

I’ve always had thresholds to it, but now this is the year where I’m going to do some wild shit. You’ll see it unfold, but I’m going to do it this year, and starting with quitting my job. I don’t know where it’s going to take me, but it’s going to open a lot of doors for me to experiment, and who knows what’s going to come out of that? So many great things.

At the end of the day, why does doing what you’re doing matter to you? The decision that you’re making to focus on your creative career, the way you’re doing it? It’s important to me because, looking back, I was always a kid who wanted to pursue a creative path. But where I came from, I could never do it because I grew up in a family that didn’t have a lot of money.

I grew up in constant scarcity my whole life, and I really wanted to build a life for myself surrounded by abundance. It took a lot of hard work.

It took a lot of years of me busting my ass. And what does that lead me to? It leads me to creatively pursue this thing I’ve shut down for most of my life because I had to keep refilling my scarcity bucket. And now I’m filling up my abundance bucket. The time for scarcity is done.

Now I’m running towards abundance and building it. A big part of that is really bringing out the inner child in me, the one that always wanted to do creative shit that never had a chance to see the light of day. I am seeing myself more and more waking up and realizing that I want to do something I’ve never done before and go down that path because I want to see where it leads me. I’ve never fully had a chance to explore that, and now I’m going to do that. You are now, and that’s exciting! I’m going to do that, and I know that something I’ll get is meant for me.

This is the complete opposite of what I’m doing in my nine-to-five job. I’m good at the job, but it’s not something that I wake up looking forward to. And when you know that’s the case, I don’t want to be in that gray area for too long. And now that I’ve done some experiments and they’ve worked out fine, I’m going to take a full plunge.

Are there any common misconceptions about you or the work that you’re doing? Some of the content that I put out is obviously throwing dinners in my apartment. It’s a nice space, don’t get me wrong, but people who are out there watching my videos probably think, “Oh, she’s just probably rich, throwing dinners, and this is all she does.” The truth is, that’s not the case. I have a nine-to-five job that I wake up for and do my best every day. While I’m at it, I’m looking at how to build this creative life out there for me that fulfills me...the thing I’ve been trying to do for 30 years.

I’m a normal person living my life and entering a new era. At the same time, I’ve seen myself grow and change so much over the last three years.

As I’ve evolved, so have the people and relationships around me. I’ve found myself stepping into new friendships, and also naturally drifting from some that once felt like home. I’m learning that not everything is meant to come with you into every version of your life. And that’s not a bad thing, it’s just part of growing. Letting go of certain things hasn’t been easy. It’s something most of us go through at different points in our lives, but that doesn’t make it any less hard.

I’ve felt the weight of that over the past few years. It’s been challenging, uncomfortable, and at times, lonely. And when you feel like you’re not being chosen in certain moments, it can really stay with you. But going through all of this has made something very clear to me.

If you want a village, you have to be a villager. So I’m building myself into that. Through hosting, creating spaces, bringing people together, and treating people the way I want to be treated. And in doing that, I feel like I’m becoming a little better every single day.

I feel more deeply now than I ever have before. And for the first time, I’m actually allowing myself to express it.

Do you have any advice or something you’d share with a younger version of Nirupa? What would you tell her? This is something that’s very out there and not something I’m making up myself, but what I’ve learned in the last two years and with what I’ve experienced, is that done is better than being perfect. Go make it first, and then figure out how you can make it better later. Because the worst thing you can do to yourself is convince yourself that you will be ready one day.

Nobody is. Nobody will ever be. So when you put something out there, it’s going to automatically instill more and more confidence in you to keep pouring into it. For someone who is feeling trapped or someone who is feeling like, “oh, you know what, I want to make this change, but I don’t know how to...” I would say, go jump at it, and then you can figure out how to swim, which sounds a little scary, but that’s exactly what I did, and it has, if anything, transformed my life in the best way possible.

So my advice is: done is better than perfect, and just try.

Which Nirupa would have loved or hated to hear this advice? Every single version up until two years ago. But again, for me, it was like a major life moment that happened, which woke me up one day, and I said, “ What the fuck are you doing?” It takes that for some people. Some people, you know, it might never happen.

So my advice is don’t wait for that to happen. If you feel like you know it in your gut, trust your gut. By the way, your gut is 99% right. Trust your gut, and if you feel like something is not meant for you, it’s not meant for you. There’s another path.

Younger Nirupa didn’t know what she was doing. She didn’t know who she was. And it’s crazy because I grew up in an Indian household, and it was a very, very strict household. So, I never really understood life outside. I was a frog in a well. I had to build myself up when I came to the States. I had to understand how people talk, behave, and present themselves. How do I do a good job at work? All these things. I literally was reborn when I came here because I didn’t know what I was doing before that.

I was very sheltered in the household, where all they cared about was getting good grades: no social skills, none of that. I had to build all of that over time by observing other people. I feel very deeply, and I also observe a lot. Over time, that made me who I am, and it’s only going to get better.

Share a list of three things you’d like to recommend. You decide the topic.

1. Live alone by yourself. It teaches you a lot. It’s very easy to be around people all the time in a city like New York. You learn a lot about yourself when you are alone. It almost forces you to thrive and enjoy your alone time. That’s very important because we’re so good at having our brains occupied. Let yourself rest and reflect on the day. How do you make your space feel like home? How do you evolve in an environment that is yours? If you can live alone, it’s great. It’s the best thing.

2. Get a pet. I am a cat mom for two cats, and they have made me a better person. When you’re alone and living by yourself, and let’s say you had a bad night’s sleep... imagine you were waking up in a house of no pets. You wake up, and you’re like, “Oh fuck...” But with my cat, she’s sitting in front of my face, and automatically dopamine and serotonin, or whatever you call it, hit. It’s rewiring my brain the first thing in the morning, and you can’t start your day on a bad note. Get a pet; they bring out the best of you and your caregiving side. It’s done that for me, even though I was never a cat fan. I have a cat now, and I love love love coming home to her.

3. Take yourself on solo dates. A lot of people are very uncomfortable being alone, especially in New York. How funny is that? It’s a city filled with people, and you must assume that it’s easy to make friends. Go take yourself on dates. Go sit at a coffee shop, go to an old diner, and order a drink, observe people, strike up conversations. You’ll end up having a conversation or two that night. Who knows what comes out of that? That’s how you meet people and how you have conversations that will sometimes challenge the way you think. It’s very important to do that.

The most dangerous person on the entire planet is the one who assumes they are always correct. That their opinion is the right opinion. You need to go out there and meet people with different points of view. That’s what happens at the dinner table all the time and at the dinner parties [I’ve hosted].

I’m bringing 18 people with such diverse POVs and walks of life. I put them at a table together for six hours. One of the things I also do is shake them loose with a lot of deep questions. I love those spicy questions. And people love it when they can actually share something. That’s how it becomes a living and breathing table. I love seeing more and more of that throughout the night.

What song do you currently have on repeat?

Suddenly I see by KT Tunstall

Every single morning when I’m going to work, I play this song. It’s the opening song of The Devil Wears Prada, which is one of my favorite movies of all time. I have never been so excited for Devil Wears Prada 2! Miranda Priestly is such a badass. That’s if you can look past the facade she carries. She is an incredibly powerful woman, but she’s also human. That’s why her character resonates with me as well. And Anne Hathaway’s character...she comes into New York, figuring out her role where she wants to be a writer...when I came to New York, I was Anne Hathaway’s character. And I see myself evolving into Miranda over time.

I love that movie, and when you listen to the song, it’s just so uplifting. Listening to it first thing in the morning brings a fresh burst of energy every day when I get off the train for work. I play that song, and it’s like I’m living that life in New York. How lucky am I to be here?

As an immigrant, I watched that movie when I was maybe 14 years old, living in India on a small TV, and now I am living that life in New York.

Enjoyed the Conversation with Nirupa Konijeti? You can find her on Instagram @bazaar_nyc and on Substack @BazaarButter.

Nirupa is also passionate about giving back to World Central Kitchen

World Central Kitchen is a non-profit organization that provides fresh, chef-prepared meals to communities impacted by natural disasters, humanitarian crises, and conflict, often acting as the first to arrive at the frontlines. They focus on local partnerships and rapid response to communities in need. As part of this Conversation, a donation was made to World Central Kitchen.

You can support World Central kitchen by donating directly.

As a host and community builder, I’ve been experimenting and refining what it means to show up and create space for connection.

For me, hosting has always been less about finding the perfect space, capturing the most Instagram-worthy moment, or having a ton of people attending, and more about creating real connections I’ve craved.

It starts with small gestures, including greeting someone warmly at the door, watching strangers become friends, and seeing a guest leave feeling inspired.

That’s where the magic happens.

And rather than being tied to a single venue or rigid event format, I’ve found freedom and excitement in adapting to different spaces and opportunities.

Embracing flexibility and working with what I have has opened up new ways to bring people together. And specifically, not having a physical “third space” that I consistently have access to has become a creative advantage, allowing me to focus on what truly makes gatherings memorable: the people in the room, the energy we share, and the intention behind every detail.

So far, on this journey and many iterations along the way, three core themes have surfaced:

1. Smaller gatherings or larger ones designed to foster intimacy foster deeper, more meaningful interactions.

2. The energy of an event comes from the host’s intention and the diversity of experiences or backgrounds present.

3. Large events need even more intention to create an authentic connection. True “scale” is measured by meaningful moments, not by headcount.

On intimacy and depth

Intimate events have a distinct advantage: they create special moments that foster deeper connections. And that’s true across events that are either smaller in scale, with a shorter guest list, or larger, designed to create more intimate moments.

For example, sideseries, a painting class, and an afternoon of creative decompression that my friends and I cohosted, consisted of 1 instructor and 2 additional facilitators, with a total guest count of 15. This led to a 1:5 ratio, meaning that even while I was teaching how to paint something, other facilitators could step in to answer questions or help gather or share materials.

We also hosted sideries out of Verci, which had a smaller room designed for a more intimate layout, leading to more natural conversation among folks sitting across from one another.

Painting (and starting anything new) can also be daunting. Beginners received extra attention from facilitators, and if we weren’t able to, because of the closer, more intimate layout, folks beside them were able to help.

At SANS, a non-alcoholic craft cocktail experience curated by Billy Cho and hosted by yours truly, we had 1 bartender, 1 host, and 1 helper with around 40+ folks in attendance, coming and going at different times.

With many folks coming in, I noted who knew who and how I could enlist the help of +1s and friend groups to ease comfort.

For those who came solo, I made sure introduce them to someone new. For friends of friends, we found ways to connect with other friend groups, often sharing small anecdotes to help bring folks together. In the end, less was also more.

Once conversations started flowing, we found ways to ease other potential tensions. The line to get drinks was long, so we surprised guests with a special non-alcoholic amaro and sparkling cider sampler while they waited. This served as a moment share a cool non-alcoholic cocktail mix they could recreate themselves, plus a fun moment to taste something delicious together. At the last hour of the event, we kicked off a rapid-fire surprise raffle, giving away additional drinks guests could keep or share, sparking more laughter and conversation.

Intimacy is created through design—ratios, space layout, and how you facilitate connections. Depth is possible at any size when you’re intentional.

Energy and diversity

An event’s energy also heavily depends on the host’s energy and intention.

As Kyra Yamamoto notes, “What makes the evening memorable isn’t extravagance, it’s the confidence to stop before anything becomes “too much”. This is not instinct, it is design. The feeling that every detail has been considered, then deliberately curated. What registers as ease is never accidental; it is the result of editing, discipline, and a clear point of view.”

During get lost (& paint), a free-flow, come-as-you-are painting afternoon session, it was designed specifically for guests to come and slow down together. Guests were told to come with inspiration so they could jump right into painting.

They were able to do so because each station was already set up with everything they needed, from paintbrushes to color wheels. Canvases and paint were also placed in different parts of the room to invite movement, reduce creative fatigue, and create natural moments for conversation.

A curated playlist of slow jams that remained upbeat enough to keep energy light, along with delicious, simple bites, supported creative flow and meaningful pauses whenever guests needed a boost to keep going. Each detail is considered.

With Ground & Gather, a yoga and tea event I cohosted with , we wanted to introduce a morning of movement and opportunity for connection.

Regardless of level, Dana leads with the intention of fun and play, emphasizing “come as you are” to lower the pressure to perform and supporting guests of all levels and backgrounds.

And afterward, we gathered our guests for a light breakfast and warm teas of their choice to nourish our bodies on a day of rest.

While we had 12 guests, it could have easily been set up for a large-group conversation. Instead, we intentionally created smaller zones (kitchen, dining, and coffee table seating areas) and placed conversation cards with opening questions to help guests get to know one another.

In the end, people could choose to connect, rest, or catch up with friends. And everyone showed up and lingered into the early afternoon, even through one of the first snowstorms we’ve had in New York this year!

Energy and diversity are curated. By designing different ways to participate and connect, you let each guest find their own way into the experience. The host is a curator of tone, flow, and ease.

Connection at scale

Large events need even more intention to create an authentic connection.

With over 200 attendees, my cohosts and I intentionally created layered experiences throughout Uber’s 2025 NY Design Night. We created an earlier friends-and-family pre-event that enabled a subset of attendees to meet with the team and one another before opening up to the main event. This encouraged folks and gave them some familiarity as they walked into what could have felt like a daunting experience.

And with only 3 main cohosts, we enlisted many teammates to assigned roles. Greeters, folks to mingle with guests, collaborating with IT and facilities colleagues to ensure music, sound, food, and drink were perfect, enabled us to get every detail right without having to be at every location at once, leaving decisions to be made by experts confident in their area.

Plus, a rigorous run-of-show walkthrough allowed us to confidently map the event flow down to the minute, keeping us in sync as needed and making it easy to flex as timing and audience energy changed.

Ultimately, though, scale comes from ripple effects from any event, regardless of headcount.

Instead of leaving with 10 loose connections, guests leaving with a single meaningful connection that leads to friendship or collaboration matters much more.

Guests who become inspired to host their own events or pursue a new creative hobby, like painting more, can be an incredible outcome.

And attendees taking something tangible home, like hanging their paintings up, or an intangible, like a moment of inspiration, into their daily lives, matters more in the long run.

Scale is about multiplying meaningful connections, not numbers. Success is when people leave inspired and connected—whether it’s one person or many.

Intention and connection outlast scale

In the end, I continue to learn that intention and connection outlast scale in raw headcount.

With every event kickoff and post-event reflection session, I always open and close with the intention of creating meaningful experiences for our community.

Whether or not we have the most beautiful venue. Whether there’s a snowstorm or not, creating the right conditions with resourcefulness and care can lead to more memorable and impactful gatherings. And people will show up for you, and more importantly, for themselves. To allow themselves to be true villagers and build a village together.

Let’s build together

I’d love to hear from you.

What kind of connections do you want to create?

What are you exploring with your community at the moment?

I’d also love to invite you to an upcoming community event in Brooklyn:

Get Lost (& Send Love), a creative afternoon where we’ll slow down and create personalized cards to send to friends and loved ones. Tickets include complimentary mini bouquets to take home, light bites, and all the materials you need to get crafty. Plus $1 of every ticket sale donated to Heart of Dinner.

Tickets: https://luma.com/efwbcyov

Hope to see you there!

west & ease is part of & luo studio, where I do fractional design consulting, design coaching, and host creative community events. If you're a brand, team, or creative partner interested in collaborating on any of that, I'd love to connect. You can learn more and reach out at andluo.studio.

Music by lsaudio from Pixabay

We’ve all been there: you’ve built up projects, clients, and team experience, and you’re eager for your next role. But as you apply for jobs, you don’t hear back…especially from the companies you’re most excited about.

One of the first things I tell design coaching clients is that how you present yourself in your portfolio can work against you. That’s because many portfolios unintentionally hide a designer’s real talent by forgetting the core purpose: to show, not tell, why you should be hired.

*Specifically, when I refer to portfolios, this means public portfolios that product designers share and submit for consideration as opposed to case study presentations during live interviews and/or final rounds.

Since 2014, I’ve been on both sides of the hiring table: as an applicant, hiring manager, and fractional design lead. I’ve reviewed hundreds of portfolios and coached designers through the same question: “Why can’t I land a role when I think my portfolio is enough?”

If you’re interested in having a partner on your side to figure this out together, book a 1-on-1 design coaching session. I’m here to help.

Book a 1-on-1 design coaching session

The “75% rule”

Just like your résumé, your portfolio should quickly clarify your experience for recruiters and hiring managers. Both make snap decisions on applications often after a brief scan and comparison to dozens of others.

Instead of documenting every detail and decision, treat your portfolio as a tool to spark interest and open the door for conversations.

The direct link to your portfolio is likely not the main way you’re discovered, either. Like any user flow, consider how one finds your information: through word of mouth, LinkedIn, or by posting your work. It doesn’t usually start because someone found your portfolio website organically.

With that in mind, public portfolios can be used in several ways to enhance your résumé and overall application. In your public portfolio, you should show at most 75% of your best work in each case study, and save the rest of your detailed case studies for live portfolio reviews.

The 75% rule is a framework I developed from pattern-matching what actually prompts a recruiter or hiring manager to lean in, ask questions, and want to talk. Plus, it helps give a “stopping” point for ourselves to say, this is good enough and start applying rather than fixating on the perfect portfolio (because that simply doesn’t exist).

What is too much or too little

Here are a few examples of where portfolios can fall short.

Folks who work in really complicated fields or products often want to highlight all the difficulties or complexities they faced. But these types of case studies can be bogged down in detail, causing hiring managers to skip over key points or miss the value entirely.

Another common mistake is overloading portfolios with personality: too much motion, blurs, or flourishes can distract from the work. If it’s unclear whether a design decision was project-driven or just for show, the portfolio loses impact.

Striking the right balance between content and visuals is also crucial. Too much text can overshadow the “show”; too many visuals can lack story. Tailor your portfolio to your audience so hiring managers see your fit and want to learn more.

The list can go on; instead, let’s focus on how we can get to the right balance, based on the type of role you want.

Putting the 75% rule to work

After doing an initial audit, I often collaborate with my clients to do the following:

Read more

While I’m no expert in Chinese astrology, I’ve been enjoying learning more about this fiery, intense year. Jing Gao of Jing Theory breaks down some moments in history that the fire horse coincided with (Cultural Revolution, Vietnam War, and Cold War!), seeing how is celebrating new years in Taiwan (really cool to see celebration traditions and some fun events and offerings for NY based folks), plus a fun reminder from on what not to do this new year’s day to ensure we preserve our good luck at the start of this year with Ava Lee of GlowwithAva.

As we kick off the new year, I wanted to offer and give thanks to all of you for being here and supporting west & ease. I started a version of this Substack (a blog I used to write musings, travel guides, recommended music, and much, much more) back in 2016 as a way to learn and share with others. It means so much to see you all here and to continue to grow together. Head over to www.westandease.com/yearofthefirehorse to redeem your free 1-month access to all paid posts.

So, if you’ve been interested in reading any of these, now’s your chance:

Here’s to a year of being more well-read, learning, and sharing together.

Meet Kimmy Wu, a New-York based licensed psychotherapist and sex therapist, writer, and founder whose work centers on community and creating safer spaces for humans to live and exist in. As a third-culture kid raised between Taiwan and Florida, Kimmy shares how her upbringing shaped a lifelong awareness of emotional safety and the presence of being seen, held, and accepted. After beginning her career in hospitality and corporate marketing in Washington D.C., COVID-19 created an unexpected opening in her path, one that led her back to being in service of others through mental health care. This path led her to pursue her degree at Northwestern University and becoming a licensed psychotherapist and sex therapist helping individuals and couples navigate shame, sexuality, identity, and the work of becoming. Kimmy also explores the liminal space of becoming through her Substack, Between Living and Dreaming, blending personal reflection with cultural critique. She is also the founder of Thirdspace, a platform designed to help people build real, emotionally grounded relationships in an increasingly disconnected world. Across therapy, writing, speaking, and technology, Kimmy’s work is unified by a commitment to care, autonomy, and the belief that safer worlds are built through intentional connection.

Interviewed in August 2025. | Conversation has been edited for clarity and brevity. | Also heads up, there’s some explicit language in this conversation.

Please introduce yourself. My name is Kimmy. I’m just a girl with a wide range of ambitions who wants to help make the world a better, safer place in many ways. Safety is one of those concepts that I often think about, as a woman, in all kinds of contexts we find ourselves in. It’s important to understand that the world is a dangerous place, and the only thing we can truly do is try to create safer spaces for others.

Professionally, I’m a mental health therapist. I specialize in working in sex therapy, but also do trauma work and help folks with all kinds of backgrounds and struggles. Specifically, I love working with people on identity formation, learning about their pasts, and how that past informs who they are today. And dreaming about who they want to become.

I also write about this liminal space of becoming in my own Substack newsletter, Between Living and Dreaming. That’s a passion project that I hold very dearly. Although the intent was to write about that liminal space, I’ve also slowly found myself incorporating cultural commentary into my writing, discussing the things I notice in my work and as a human being navigating the modern world. For example, sharing some of my own critique about how we need to resist the urge to make things easier, even though, yes, of course, I wish people’s lives were easier

Before becoming a mental health therapist, you had a background in corporate marketing and hospitality. You also grew up in Taiwan and immigrated to the United States at a very young age. Were there any moments in your past lives that were important in shaping who you are now, if at all, especially to your passion around safety? I really appreciate this question. I’ll start from the beginning: I was born and raised in Taiwan, and I moved to the U.S. when I was about 13 or 14.

My observations of safety started when I immigrated, but it was always present, even when I was in Taiwan. Not to flatten the narrative of this being the immigrant experience, but my parents were immigrants. I’m a third-culture kid. My parents moved to Taiwan from Hong Kong, and they’ve been there for 30-40 years to this day. My dad still speaks Mandarin with a slight Cantonese accent.

Even though I was born and raised in Taiwan and very much identify as a Taiwanese person, I knew there was always discrimination towards my parents as immigrants in their workplace, even though they are not a visible minority. That brought on a hyperawareness about what being different meant, and it wasn’t always safe to be different.

From my own experience as an immigrant, I don’t want to say people were malicious or mean to me in any particular way. Teenagers in general can be bullies. There’s a naivety that I didn’t think about. Not that I didn’t think about what safety meant at that time, but it’s more of where I didn’t really know how to define what safety was like. I wanted to be with people all the time. And to this day, I still feel that, but a lot of it came from insecurity about not knowing where I belonged. There was a deep yearning to be known, held, and accepted. To me, that is what safety is. Of course, there are more basic levels of security and safety. This is your own experience. Exactly, and for lack of better words, the definition of safety for me at that time was as a teenager.

So when I say safety, what I really mean is more than just the obvious. I don’t want violence to happen to us. It’s also the emotional safety that is just as important, but folks don’t necessarily think about it as much.

Between Living & Dreaming

When "Safe" Feels Boring: Reconciling Security with Desire

“I’ve finally found someone who makes me feel safe,” they say. “He’s kind, he listens, I don’t feel like I have to shrink, perform, or chase…

Read more

10 months ago · 9 likes · Kimmy Wu

When you immigrated from Taiwan to Florida, did you come on your own? I moved to Naples, Florida, to live with my aunt and uncle. My dad stayed in Taiwan, and he never moved to the U.S. My mom would be the one who came to Florida for six months at a time and went back.

This is something I really appreciate, especially now as an adult, looking back at how much she had to give up for me and my brother to be here six months at a time. And having a new perspective on what that must have been like for someone who really takes my career seriously. I can imagine it wasn’t easy for my mom to decide to give up her career as a physician to become essentially a stay-at-home mom when she was in between two countries, and suddenly, my dad became the sole breadwinner of the home. I hadn’t really thought about how much pressure that must have been for my parents until I was more mature.

There’s a weird dilemma: I wish my parents had shared with me the ways they struggled, but at the same time, I’m grateful that they never really put that pressure on my brother and me. I grew up quite blissfully unaware of the ways my parents struggled, but at the same time, there’s also a lot of mixed messaging that made things very confusing.

For example, if I ever wanted to learn something, my parents would not think twice about paying for lessons or allowing me to pursue any interest. But then, if I wanted something nice, my parents would be like, “Nope, you can’t have that.”

It definitely shaped my value system in many ways. Not that I don’t like nice things, but I absolutely value the education and all the interests that I’ve pursued throughout my life. That’s what I hope to pass on to my children as well.

I’m reminded that my parents were also similar in that, if it were for education, they wouldn’t hesitate to pay for it. My mother was also big on life experiences, and, with limited funds, we would take Chinatown bus tours that brought us to many places, in the safety and familiarity of a Chinese tour guide and guests. It was all about how we could make this work even without the frills, because my parents valued life experiences, and that has also really shaped my values.

As someone who is a pleasure activist and a sex therapist, I very much believe in human freedom to indulge when it’s necessary and also when it’s appropriate. Hopefully, I’ll have the means to buy both experiences and sometimes frivolous things for my children in the future, of course, within reason.

Moving forward in your timeline, how did we arrive at pursuing hospitality and therapy from when you first immigrated to the U.S.? I realized I’ve never identified as a “doer,” but looking back, anything I ever said I was going to do, I actually accomplished. Becoming a therapist is one of them.

In terms of my timeline, I ended up going to college in Orlando at Central Florida. I loved my time there. It was really fun, but I definitely could have taken my academics more seriously. College was the first time I got a taste of what freedom was like—making my own decisions and coming into who I wanted to be, or at least having the space to really think about it. I started off as a pre-med student because I thought wanted to become a doctor, like my parents. I realized organic chemistry was going to be the bane of my existence. And it was. It’s the class that weeds most people out, and I was like, “Nope, I don’t think this is for me.”

Then I just started to go to different lectures on campus, wherever the professors allowed it. I stumbled upon a hospitality class. There’s a warmth in the way [the professor] presented the ethos of hospitality. And as someone who likes to take care of others, that really stood out to me, and I started doing my own inventory of, why did I even want to be a doctor in the first place? Some of those reasons included wanting to be with people, to work with people, and to serve people. There are definitely certain ideals that carried through, even as I decided to then go into business and the hospitality industry.

And I remember, after a semester or two of being a hospitality student, I recall having second thoughts. I was like, “Oh my god, am I making the worst decision of my life, giving up medicine to come into this?” It’s a hard decision, and it would mean a very different kind of life and tax bracket. Real. Yep, and I remember there was a moment where my mom actually was like, “Well, you have to think about this. People like ‘us’, aka doctors, also need vacations. So when you do your job well, and specifically, being in the hotel industry, then that’ll help [doctors] do our jobs better. That’s the moment I was like, “Yeah! Crap, are you my mom?! Like, who are you?”

My mom has nuggets of wisdom that sometimes really surprised me because I love my mom to death, but she sometimes can be quite critical of me. But that was one of the very positive moments that remind me how much she cares—though I’m not even sure if she even remembers that conversation. To me, that was a pivotal and radically self-accepting moment, one in which I felt she gave me permission to have.

And so, I kept pursuing it and ended up having a career in the business of hospitality. However, a few years into my career, COVID hit, and all my hotels were shutting down. While that was happening, I was also confronted by a moment of realization that something felt missing. I came into this career with a lot of interest and curiosity, but I realized that I’m not a good fit for the corporate culture and lifestyle. There are many moments when I feel unsatisfied, like a tiny screw in this big machine.

And not to knock anyone who wants that, because there’s a level of stability and safety that I definitely miss now, as an entrepreneur. But at the same time, there weren’t the kinds of opportunities I wanted to learn more and do more that were freely given to me. Was it also the way you were learning and how you liked to do things was different from what corporate culture was affording you? Yeah. Exactly. And that’s why, when COVID all of a sudden hit and hotels and trips started shutting down, it was really stressful because I was waiting for news of being fired or furloughed. I really appreciated my team and company for doing everything they could at the time to keep me on board for as long as possible, but it was actually a very clarifying moment for me when I was furloughed because despite the financial stress of paying rent in DC, I felt a sense of relief. That felt like an opening for new possibilities and potential. That relief definitely grew over time. As soon as I started coming out of the phase of panic and not really knowing what’s next, I started taking a break for myself.

When you’re in a corporate culture, you’re chugging along. You’re doing everything you can to prove to your bosses that you deserve more opportunities and whatnot. But that was the first time in a long time that I gave myself time and space to read all the books I wanted. And to take care of myself and my body.

Several things have happened since then. I started thinking, obviously, about what I want to do next. Do I really want to stay in this work environment, or is there something else I can do? There’s a part of me considering even business school because, in undergrad, I was intrigued by entrepreneurship.

That’s when I figured maybe I should try opportunities that allowed for more creativity. I started looking into nonprofit marketing, and ended up getting a job at the National Register of Health Service Psychologists, an organization that supports health service psychologists through membership with benefits.

That was one of the stepping stones. And what ended up happening was that I realized I was reading a lot of books that were written by therapists, which I didn’t really register at the time. I was heavily invested in my personal development at that time, and I really wanted to find my own therapist—but I could not find an Asian therapist who was taking new clients or available in my area.

And then I had a life-altering conversation with a friend where he shared all the very tough things he was struggling with at the time. I listened and provided support in the best ways that I could. And, at the end of the call, he said, “I don’t know if you’re going to take me seriously, but I think you should consider being a therapist. I know you’re looking for a new career, and I think you could potentially be a really good fit for that.” And I immediately shut it down because I think there was a part of me that’s like, “Well, I left the medical field to pursue something else, why am I going back to that?”

Another reason was that I didn’t want to go back to school for seven or eight years. I thought I had to get a doctorate degree. I had this misconception that I also had to be fully perfect. I have my own perfectionistic stuff that I’m still working on. I was like, “I’m not stable enough to be a therapist.”

A few weeks went by, and I really could not shake the thought. That’s when you know it’s real. And potentially a really good idea! And that’s when I was like, let me do my due diligence and some research. I decided to start volunteering for the Crisis Text Line because there was so much demand during COVID, and that felt really meaningful. I wasn’t getting paid, and I was feeling really fulfilled. So, maybe there’s something here. Not that I ever doubted my friend, but again, he’s a jokester, so I didn’t really take his suggestion seriously initially.

So then, that’s when I decided I’ll apply to school and we’ll see what happens. If I get in, then great, I’ll do it. I’ll take it as a sign. If not, then I’m just back to where I was anyway, and it’s not a big deal.

I ended up getting into two out of three schools I applied to. That’s incredible! I ultimately chose Northwestern, and I have no regrets. It’s a very rigorous program, and it really prepared me academically and clinically in ways that made me feel very secure going into my practice.

What stands out is that you took an idea and gained more information through smaller achievable tasks to help you make a firmer decision without overwhelming yourself. And each decision helped answer or dispel any assumptions. Yes, there were a lot of actions being taken, and it’s part of the doer identity that I’m slowly identifying in myself. There’s a part of me that needs to make informed decisions. I sometimes like to allow life to happen to me, but in reality, there’s a lot of thoughtfulness to try to put into all the decisions I make in my life. And that’s what living intentionally really means to me.

The rest was history. I graduated from Northwestern and decided to leave DC. It was very bittersweet, but I pursued my dream of living in New York City. Now I’m here, sometimes thriving, sometimes struggling, and meeting a lot of amazing people like you. And really genuinely loving my life. That’s amazing.

Could you explain to folks who may not be as familiar with therapy what a psychotherapist does, and also what a sex therapist does? A psychotherapist is someone who practices talk therapy. We could be broken down into counselors, LMFTs (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapists), or social workers, and most likely have a Master’s. Psychologists have a doctorate degree, and they are also therapists. So I’m a counselor because of the degree I received.

Psychotherapists work with a plethora of different issues. People usually find their own niches within that, but sex therapy is much more niche.

For sex therapy, we only do talk therapy. That’s the part I think people often are like, “What does a sex therapist do?” They also wonder if a sex therapist gets physical with their clients or anything like that. And the answer is no, it’s strictly professional and talking only.

To become a sex therapist, there’s a lot of specialized training and certifications that you have to go through. The certification part is not required, but there are specific training programs that you don’t get in regular grad school. So it’s in addition to what you’re doing.

Why did you choose to pursue sex therapy? Personally, I think sexuality is one of those topics that we don’t really talk about, but we really should. That’s my personal opinion. I can’t pinpoint a specific moment when I decided to be a niche sex therapist. Throughout my career, I’ve always been very curious about the topics of sex.

For some context, I come from a religious family, so it was a pretty sex negative space, which is ironic because my mom’s an OB/GYN. It was always like, “no sex until you’re married” kind of thing. I realized, personally, I had a lot of shame around sexuality and a lot of misconceptions throughout my life that informed my curiosity. My mom says certain things, the church says certain things, but I don’t know that I believe in that.

I am also someone who likes to do things that other people don’t want to do or haven’t done yet. It’s not about being original; if no one else is doing it, I’ll do it. Pursuing sex therapy was kind of the same, knowing that sexuality is such a taboo, along with mental health being a taboo in the AAPI community. And so, I decided that’s where I need to go.

I don’t want to lump Asian or Asian American culture in one, but I do know that discussing sex or the topic of it isn’t openly taught. Maybe we’re similar, but what I’m picking up is that you and I both like to have more information, and thus we want to ask questions to learn more. Because there is freedom in having this level of epistemic curiosity to be able to form my own thoughts, opinions, values, and principles. Other people are telling us, and we’re just taking the word as it is, like, “oh, I’m supposed to do this now,” but, innately, for you and me, we’re like, “no wait, I want to understand more as to why.” And then I want to make my own decisions and form my own point of view.

Now that it’s been a couple of years into your career as a therapist, have there been any interesting surprises or any lessons you’ve been learning along the way? Where do I begin! There are so many layers to this.

I have learned so much about myself through this work in reflecting on my clients and how my way of interacting with them has shown me who I am in different kinds of contexts. It’s shown me my own limitations as a human being, which is extremely humbling and freeing at the same time. And my capacity for love and for care, and also this undying tenacity with me to want to bring more freedom and love to the world.

This is also a part of why I think sex therapy is a big piece of activism I care deeply about. There’s a lot of freedom, historically, in the way we fought for sexual freedom that is both political and personal. And as someone who is a radicalized healer, I would say, this is one of those spaces that isn’t just a personal thing. Sexuality is connected to our bodies, and our bodies are now under attack by the current administration and by many of the social systems we live under. Something that I learned about myself is that I will not rest until change happens or until I feel like I’ve done enough to contribute to a safer and freer world for the next generation. That’s a big part of why I do the things that I do.

Then there’s the interpersonal piece: being able to really connect with these amazing humans who sit in front of me week after week to talk about some of the most difficult and most beautiful moments in their lives. It’s such a privilege.

We started this conversation about what humanity is, and I witness it every day. I don’t want to give a specific definition of what humanity is, but we are human, and there’s something really beautiful about that. To be two humans facing each other and seeing each other in that.

From the therapy side, that’s very one-on-one interactions. I have personally witnessed you as a speaker at two forums: as a moderator for Dr. Stacey Litam’s book launch and as a speaker at the Asian American Film Festival’s conversation on “The Mind Behind the Lens - Navigating Mental Health in Creative Fields.” And from our own conversations, I know you want to continue to do more speaking engagements. What are your hopes or goals for expanding through speaking engagements? And, what have these engagements taught you? It’s been an ever-evolving thing for me to try to understand what my message is to the world. There are so many that I could touch on. As someone who just started writing publicly, I’m realizing that the kind of information I want to share with the world is about empowerment for personal autonomy. And not allowing systems to control and oppress. In many ways, that touches on the work of moderating for one of my mentors (Dr. Stacey Litam) and her book, and on advocating for the framework she’s developed and the intergenerational healing she stands for.

And on top of that, working with the film festival was really particularly meaningful in supporting other AAPI storytellers who also have their own messages that they want to share with the world. At the end of the day, they’re the biggest realization that I am just one of many voices. I can both hold importance and dignity in the words that I share and, at the same time, realize that there are so many people out there trying to do the same. There’s something just really beautiful about that nuance. And, as I get to know more people in the film industry, I am realizing that storytelling is an important part of humanity.

As someone who practices narrative therapy, I believe in writing our own stories and endings that are not doomed to fail from the beginning. There’s a freedom in deciding that even though I know I’m figuring out and have certain patterns, we’re not doomed to keep repeating them.

I actually wrote a song about that, and it's a little bit of an acknowledgement to my own trauma in the past and how that's informed different kinds of patterns in my life. But there's a very hopeful ending that alludes to this self-choosing and radical self-acceptance, which allows me to really step into my own power and make different decisions that go against the grain. That has also allowed me to meet other people who have been supportive and holding me when I feel it's difficult to go against my own brain in my own personal healing, which makes me feel really safe and really loved. That's a lot of positivity in the message of, “you get to write your own story, and we're not doomed.” We don't have to be.

A phrase that keeps coming to mind is that you want to be “part of the conversation.” That, and you are finding ways to be an active participant in conversation. Because everyone can chime in on something, but it’s about how you do it with a lot of intentionality that can help touch another person. That, and they can do the same for you. Whether that is in your one-on-one therapy sessions, the talks, or writing for your Substack.

In addition to speaking and writing, you’re also a startup founder, right? Yes, and all that I do is very much connected.

My startup started as a random idea where I woke up one day last fall and was like, “What if I built an app to help people learn how to be more empathetic towards each other?” Because there are so many ways that we are so focused on our own needs and egocentric ways of being, especially in modern society. We’re so focused on our own survival that we forget about other people and forget to witness other people’s humanity and their struggles.

The idea started snowballing into my startup, called Thirdspace. It’s not a literal space, but hopefully becomes a tool that helps us learn to connect better with each other. The premise is that it’s meant to be an AI companion/guide that enables you to reflect a little more on your relational patterns, and to be scaffolding for the ways we can show up for each other.

I want to preface by saying that [Thirdspace] is not meant to replace therapy in any way. It’s a tool that helps you connect with yourself and, in turn, connect better with other people. I’m building a curriculum for some skills development, and the framework I created focuses on community roles.

Between Living & Dreaming

Building Thirdspace: A Founder's Manifesto

TL;DR: We’re more connected than ever, but lonelier than we’ve ever been. I built ThirdSpace to help us remember how to be with each other—starting with how we show up in community…

Read more

9 months ago · 5 likes · Kimmy Wu

We talk about belonging in such an egocentric way: “How do I belong?” Or, “how do I get other people to accept me?” Which is important, but something that came to me in the past few months is,” Why don’t we ever talk about what roles we take up in community?” Some people are naturally better at noticing others’ needs and therefore at caring for them. These are the caretakers. Then there are some people who are natural leaders and are unafraid to say, “Hey, I noticed we’re a little stagnant. Here are some of the things we can do right now.” Then, certain visionaries are incredible at seeing what’s possible. These are just a few examples.

I started mapping out [the framework] based on the people I know. I explored which qualities help them shine in the community. I created 12 roles, and that will inform the framework and what Thirdspace will be doing.

It’s not meant to be a regular personality assessment where you take it once and never think about it ever again. You use it, talk about it, and then connect theory to practice. Now that we know this is what makes us who we are, how do we operationalize this information? We’ve spoken about Thirdspace before, and in addition to the framework, it’s also not meant to be rigid. Exactly, it’s dynamic. You might identify with one role, but in different context and seasonality in life, you can become something else as well. It doesn’t mean you’re only one or the other.

At the end of the day, why is all that you’re doing important to you? It’s important to me because I genuinely want people to live more connected lives. I love people and humans. As someone who has seen a lot and dealt with a lot, I have never ever gotten to a place where I was ready to give up on humanity. There’s a part of me that radically loves humans and our capacity to love and be with each other.

Now that I’m saying that out loud, there’s definitely a part of me that knew what it was like to not understand what belonging felt like, and that deeply lonely yearning part of me wants to make sure that other people don’t have to experience that if I can help it.

As a therapist, there’s one-on-one support. The startup [Thirdspace] is more about finding a scalable way to deliver greater impact than I can as an individual. Writing and speaking engagements are also the same—just really hoping that people know that there are people out there working actively to make the world a safer and better place for everybody. Selfishly, I want to build a world where hopefully my future children can also safely belong.

That’s very hard to do, but incredible to do it and keep pushing on everything you’re doing. It’s very clear to me that, throughout my life, I’ve started thinking more about why I do the things I do. There’s a huge part of me that’s really big on wanting to contribute to the world so that the next generation can live better lives than we do. Maybe it’s because I watched a lot of Naruto growing up! Laughing

Are there any common misconceptions about you or the industry you’re in that you’d like to dispel? I’ve definitely thought about this before and never really tried to confirm with anybody if that’s an actual misconception or something I made up in my mind.

I have a tough exterior, at least I think I do. As women, we’ve had to survive so much. And as an immigrant, there are so many parts of my story that made it so that I had to be very independent, strong, and tough in my own ways.

But, there’s also an incredibly gentle and tender part of me that doesn’t always get shown as easily. I wouldn’t say I’m not vulnerable, but my vulnerability has always seemed prickly because, again, it has its own built-in protective mechanism. So, maybe a misconception is that I’m just a tough person, which is so contradictory to the softness that I try to bring into my therapeutic work.

Totally, and earlier today, we had chatted about wanting to be in our “soft girl era.” There’s a perception of who you are and then what people perceive you as. You know who you are deep down, and it’s like, how do I help others see that version of me as well? It’s not required, but it’s nice that you know that about yourself and can share it with others.

I don’t see you as someone with a hard exterior; instead, you’re really passionate about what you care about and want for the world. Some people think that’s very scary because they don’t know how to do that themselves. Oftentimes, especially if the perception of an Asian woman is that we’re supposed to be soft and submissive, the moment we have an opinion or point of view, it breaks a sort of mental model people might have about us. And we often operate on a spectrum where people can only understand if you’re “this” or “that”, not maybe somewhere in between or both.

And finally, do you have any advice for a younger version of you? If there’s one thing, it would be to let a younger version of me know how loved she is. Like how deeply loved and cared for she was. I’m getting emotional when I think about that.

There’s an existential loneliness I’ve carried throughout my life that’s been so overwhelming. As humans, we’re born alone and we die alone. There’s something really scary about that to me, but it’s also something natural.

There are so many micro moments in my life when I thought I had to be really perfect to be accepted, loved, and cared for, when in reality that was already given and true. But I didn’t really know how to accept it or how to even see it. I don’t blame her. That’s the kind of environment she was in. That’s how I reacted to the world and the people around me,, but there’s a part of me that recognizes that I was really, really loved.

To this day, there’s still a tiny part of me that feels like I have to earn love, belonging, and care that probably will forever be there. But there’s also been a lot of healing over the years, where I’ve learned to love myself in ways I didn’t before. That level of permission we give ourselves and the space to choose to react differently to the parts of us are critical. Not that I would wish my life had happened differently, but I wish I had realized sooner.

Would you tell your younger self she is loved? Yeah, she is so loved and exquisite.

I’m planning a podcast called “Exquisitely Human” right now. It’s a term that my therapist gifted me. She would say, “Well, Kimmy, that’s just exquisite.” It just really stuck with me since. It’s like making space for not just the black and white but everything that goes in between.

Thank you for sharing that. I love this question in particular because, especially for folks in this later stage of life, they’re often asked about their life experiences, but in reality, we’re still learning. All I know is what I experienced before, and it’s lovely to take a moment to think back for ourselves because there’s a lot of life ahead of us, but there’s also a lot of life that was lived before. How do we still love ourselves as we continue moving forward? Because it’s not a new journey each time, we’re building on our current one. Exactly, there’s so much wisdom in taking inventory of all those moments that we’ve survived and lived.

What’s a song you currently have on repeat?

最後一頁 by 江語晨

This was a song I knew as a teenager. There’s something about lyrics in Chinese or Taiwanese pop songs from the past that has this whole narrative and something very lyrical and poetic. There’s so much meaning in every word.

The core of this song says,” I want to hold you, and I’m also fearful of letting you see the tear that’s about to fall.” It’s very emotional, and it’s a really pretty song.

What are three things you’re really enjoying right now that you want to share with other people?

1. Traveling. I recently went on a trip with our friends, Alfred and Justin, and it was freaking amazing, which I wrote about in my newsletter. There’s something deeply nourishing when you’re in a foreign country or city, just a place you’re so unfamiliar with, and it can be both uncomfortable and extremely revealing. The first thing I do when I get somewhere is always ground myself with a cup of coffee.

2. Reach out to a friend. Reach out to somebody, even if you are not good friends yet. I’m all about leaning into your curiosity in life, whether it’s a random topic you’re passionate about or a friendly person you know, like an acquaintance. Then find out what it is that they are really about. That’s something I wish more people did. Looking at the relational landscape, not just the romantic one: we’re so in our own world sometimes. There’s something really nice about having the technology to reach out to anyone and DM them about what they do. Or even learn a little more about them and show that, “hey, I know we’re not close, but I’m thinking of you and wanted you to know that I see you.” Some of my best friendships only happened because I was like, “I don’t know you, you seem pretty cool... can we hang out?” And that’s how it all happened. Then, of course, there’s the follow-through piece. And that’s the doer. You have to keep reaching out, keep hanging out to really build a relationship. Often, I notice you only see people in specific contexts, such as parties or group hangs. But friendships are multifaceted. If you only see someone at a party, that’s your party friend, but that’s not your friend who, when shit hits the fan, is there for you. Are they going to walk your dog for you if you can’t make it home? Part of it for me is about resisting a lonelier world, and we’re all culprits of breeding that kind of dynamic.

3. A repair after a rupture can be very powerful. For example, I was recently in a dating “rupture,” which is a strong word. He used the word “friend,” and I was really heartbroken by that. After going no-contact for a while, we had a conversation that was initially difficult and frustrating until I finally shared my worries and struggles in my personal life that he didn’t have context on. The vulnerability allowed both of us to soften and realize, “Oh damn, it’s not me versus you.” We started the conversation fighting for ourselves, and eventually we were able to face the thing together. It showed me that I have the ability and capacity to fix things between us. This is also important in friendships. Any ruptures we don’t attempt to repair are lost opportunities for more connection. And in many ways, this is both the part of me that loves deeply and part of me that knows how lonely life can be.

There are so many people in the world, and yet we’re sitting next to each other. To me, that’s not a coincidence. That’s a miracle and I want to treat the relationship as that. There’s so much dignity, love, and respect that I have for people who I get to orbit around and who I allow in my life. There’s a seriousness that I wish people could see. It’s not “if you don’t work out, I’ll find someone else.” In so many ways, modern society has taught us that we’re expendable to each other. My interpretation of what you’re saying is that it’s important to try together. Yes, whether in romantic, friendship, or family. There’s a lot of value in trying.

Enjoyed the Conversation with Kimmy Wu? You can find her at www.kimmywu.com, @asiansextherapist on Instagram, and on Substack, Between Living and Dreaming.

Kimmy Wu is also passionate about giving back the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) because, in her words, “fuck ICE and fuck this administration. No amount of therapy can fix human rights violations. We need system reform.”

The ACLU’s mission is to create a more perfect union — beyond one person, party, or side. And to realize this promise of the United States Constitution for all and expand the reach of its guarantees. As part of this Conversation, a donation was made to the ACLU.

You can support the ACLU by donating directly.

At the beginning of 2025, I began to ponder a simple question: “What does it mean to build community?” Living in New York, it’s easy to be surrounded by many people, but people alone do not create community.

Because to me, community is defined, as Merriam-Webster would, as “a state or feeling of caring about and wanting to interact with others in a group.” Specifically, the feeling of finding space and belonging with others.

And so, I began to explore with my community what it means to create and engage in community.

Experimenting with creating community

2025 led me on a journey to explore and create community.

In April, I co-hosted Uber’s Design Night in NYC to reconnect with the design community and open our doors to share knowledge and space. It was vital that we shared space with external speakers like Maxim Leyzerovich, who was building beyond the norm by driving innovation at Amtrak, and Benn Y. Lam, who was navigating a design career focused on positive social and environmental impact. Most importantly, we provided a physical space for designers of all walks of life to connect.

In June, alongside my friends Abi and Denise, we hosted “sideseries,” which we experimented as potentially a first event for us to create space to step away from our busy day-to-day lives. It was the first time I shared my painting skills in person as @liftandlost, and it became a way for me to introduce what felt like a lonely hobby into a real activity shared by friends. My hope was to create an experience in which an activity that can feel very daunting becomes approachable and easy. In this event, you simply showed up, tried, and it worked.

Then, alongside Abi, we convinced Sankeerth Garapati to co-host “that dinner party.” We knew he loved cooking, experiencing high-quality dining, and sharing the culinary experience with others. In a span of two months, he whipped up a menu and we threw a dinner party of 20 on the hottest day of the summer. Every guest left with their bellies full and at least one new friend as they walked out the door.

Finally, I hosted “get lost (& paint)” to provide space and remove the cold start to creativity. I invited my friends over for a free-flow painting session, and everyone came prepared to paint or at least try, without the worry of setup or materials. All guests left with beautiful paintings and brushes to take home on a cold December day.

Most importantly, hosting and building community taught me that lowering the barrier to entry, whether that’s skill, confidence, or familiarity, is what allows people to show up fully.

Learning by participating in community

For me, building community also means participating and lending a helping hand. And I found that to be true as a participant.

On a cold March evening, my friend Dana and I trekked into Greenpoint to attend Gab’s Lucky Dinner Club. What unfurled was an incredible night of paired wines and gorgeous food. The fun conversations we had with strangers on the cold fire escape and stumbling home in my tall boots, feeling an irresistible joy that I had no idea I would be stepping into. After all, I was stepping into a complete stranger’s home and left with a few foodie friends who loved to have a good time.

In July, I serendipitously saw and immediately applied to join the inaugural Creative Morning’s Mentorship Stoop. Led by the incredible Tina Roth Eisenberg, alongside Kelly Surun and Matteo Bologna, they held space on an actual brownstone stoop in Brooklyn, complete with bagels and coffee. I heard from people who have been running their businesses independently for decades, folks navigating their freelance careers, and more. For each of us, something cracked open. I remember pouring out what I had kept close—that I wanted to leave my day job and finally start something of my own. And I was reminded to manifest: to write a letter to myself envisioning the life I want to live. I left feeling incredibly inspired by being vulnerable and honest with myself and others in the community.

As we entered fall, I saw a Substack note from Ella Henry about her Airbnb experiences and, luckily I snagged a coveted ticket. When I showed up, I didn’t know I would eventually leave feeling so nourished by the food, space, and company. I remember sharing, for one of the first times, a few major personal accomplishments and the decision to change my career while sipping on teas we had crafted ourselves. And when I left, a few of us ended up sitting for hours, and people watched at Washington Square Park. The space Ella created was a physical manifestation of the energy and care she brings to Gut Feelings, and I left feeling seen and grateful (with a ton of goodies)!

And finally, I was invited to Nirupa’s Kitchen Aid x Bazaar dinner to celebrate her 100K followers. We met only the month prior, but to witness how Nirupa opens up and creates conversation over delicious food. From her first time doing a live cooking demo of her incredible burrata chaat (a hit and must-recreate) to our beautifully intimate dinner, where each guest shared and spilled a little of themselves, I felt how and why Nirupa’s energy is so magnetic. She asks, but more importantly, she listens and does it in a way that builds on top of a conversation where everyone is included—all over a plate of good food. I felt so lucky and grateful to have a seat.

These experiences didn’t exist in isolation. They’re part of a larger ecosystem of people designing care, culture, and connection across the city.

Continuing community in 2026

As 2025 came to a close, there were lots of conversations floating around on how the price of community is inconvenience (or annoyance). To me, it served as a reminder that community ultimately means trying and, yes, putting on those pants to go outside. After all, we can’t survive in this life on our own, and we have to show up for one another to build stronger connections and support each other in our growth and success.

And so, as the new year begins, my hope is to continue partnering with creatives and push forward on what it means to create and participate in community. It’ll always be a work in progress, but I’m ecstatic to make it happen.

So, if you’re ready to take the leap to show up and participate in a work in progress, I’m cohosting a few events in January: a wellbeing-focused event with Ground + Gather: a yoga and tea event with Dana Lee and SANS: a craft non-alcoholic cocktail experience with Billy Cho. Hope to see you there, and we can practice building community together.

Music by lsaudio from Pixabay

Interviewed in May 2025. This conversation has been edited for clarity and brevity.

west & ease is a space for conversations with creatives, insights on design, and the moments that bring community to life. I’m Leslie Luo and in this conversation, I’m catching up with Sam Ray Lee—a creative and part of the Brooklyn-based music collective Umami House.

We first spoke in 2023. Since then, a lot has happened. In this recent conversation, Sam reflects on what he’s been building over the past year and a half — from learning how to create the right atmosphere for live music, to finding that sweet spot where energy, space, and sound all come together. But it wasn’t until he came up with the idea for Jam Battle, a one-v-one musical improv showdown featuring talented artists, that he saw the full potential of what this could become.

Also heads up, there’s some explicit language in this conversation.

To learn more about Sam and his work, you can follow him on Instagram @raytheidea, @umamihousemusic, and @jambattleofficial.

You can also read our first conversation where Sam shares more about his creative journey in 2023.

west & ease

Sam Ray Lee on how creativity can be a full-circle journey

Meet Sam Ray Lee, a musician, singer, songwriter, UI/UX designer, freelance photographer, and one-half of the musical duo Umami House based in Brooklyn, NY. Sam's creative journey starts from an early age. It morphs into an integral part of his identity, with each new pursuit growing and adapting to particular periods …

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2 years ago · 3 likes · Leslie Luo

Credits

Intro and outro song: Friends by Umami House

Umami House’s first song, Move Along

Audio from the first Umami House Experience recap

Audio from the second Umami House Experience recap

Audio from Umami House x 12 Pell collaboration

Audio from Umami House Presents Jam Battle 1 recap

Meet Ka Yee Chan, a Hong Kong-born, Brooklyn-based maker and third-culture kid whose creative journey is rooted in curiosity, care, and community. What began as childhood art classes grew into a lifelong exploration of thoughtful design and accessible creativity. While her path from coffee shops and plant stores to hospitality and events may appear nonlinear, it reflects a deep commitment to aligning her passions with her daily life. Over time, Ka Yee found her voice in event production, where logistics meet genuine human connection. Whether she's shaping clay, curating experiences, or designing community spaces, her work centers on bringing people together. At the heart of it all is a long-term vision to build a retreat upstate where people can slow down, make, and reconnect with themselves and with one another. Ka Yee reminds us that growth doesn't have to look conventional; growing differently is still growing.

Interviewed in May 2025 | This conversation has been edited for clarity and brevity.

Please introduce yourself. My name is Ka Yee, not "Ka." My first name is two words, and a lot of people get that wrong. I'm a third-culture kid. I was born in Hong Kong but came to America when I was nine and was raised in Brooklyn.

I've always been a maker, and I love creating things. Currently, I'm an event coordinator producing cultural events.

How did you become a maker? My journey to becoming a maker began when I was nine, after moving to America. I became very shy since I didn't know the language, even though I was the same noisy kid from Hong Kong.

I learned to speak English in Hong Kong, which has given me a distinct accent and a unique way of speaking. And so, kids would laugh at me. They weren't being malicious, but it made me hesitant to talk because I didn't want to get made fun of.

My elementary school teacher introduced me to art, which became my escape as I looked forward to creating art every day. I realized I had a talent for drawing and crafting. That same teacher later recommended that I apply to a junior high school with an art specialization. Later on, I also applied to an art high school. And that's where it all started.

Do you think art is a way for you to connect with the community around you, or has it always been a solo activity? Both. I enjoy it as a solo activity because I appreciate having time to think through the process alone. It was definitely a solo activity when I was a kid because I was trying to escape from my new environment, where I had an official reason not to talk to the other kids. As I'm older, art has become more of a community thing. I enjoy sharing what I do and collaborating with others to create things.

It's incredible to see how it's transformed and to see how you've integrated art into your day-to-day life. I personally never attended an art school — what was that like? Were you into specific types of art, and was there anything that shocked you about the experience along the way? That was also my first experience when I was in junior high school. I didn't know what to expect. I didn't think much about what was taught, as art was just one of the classes offered. However, that changed when I entered high school. Everyone was so talented in their own way because that particular art high school had students who were focused on art specializations.

I realized more of what I lean towards in high school: 3D and sculptural work the most. I love collages. Painting is not my strong suit.

Most of the time, I have a big picture of what I want to achieve. Then, I will start making it and will have a plan. Over time, I began to enjoy the process without worrying about the outcome. That's why I never call myself an "artist"; I don't think my brain thinks like an artist. I really like to design things. I love making things functional, even if they're a bit funky. And I usually have an end product in my head and find creative ways to take it all together.

What's your definition of an artist versus a maker? I'm unsure if I have a definition for it, but I feel cringey about describing myself as an artist. Artists are also a way of life, influencing how they think and live. It's not about producing a certain "thing." When I studied design, we often talked about function and form. Aesthetics is part of design, but it is almost secondary because the design needs to serve a purpose. Is there a problem that it solves?

I like to call myself a maker because my mind is more like a designer's mind than an artist's. To me, artists figure it out as they are in the process because there isn't an "end product." They have a vision of what they're trying to create, but it's not like one product they're trying to make functional. It's almost like their diary: a form of expression.

The word that keeps coming to mind when we speak is "moldable." Is the way you create by molding something? For example, the 3D work you do, such as ceramics, and even the present day, where you curate and host events and workshops—these are all formats where you're molding something towards a functional vision rather than having it be the canvas itself. Would you say this is how you approach being a maker or some of your work?

It may be similar to my personality, as I'm not one to express or let out my feelings. I visualize a painter with a canvas expressing themselves. That's not me; I don't think that's what you need. That's not my personality. My personality is more about play and form. Everything has a step, but I'm not strict about it. There's a process in my mind that I need to do first, so I'm going to do that. And do I have enough time to do all of this together?

For example, when creating ceramics, I realize I'm impatient because I don't have enough patience for hand-building [technique] versus the wheel. The wheel begins with a structure, and you continue from there. Once you finish the clay, you're done.

What about tools? Personally, I don't like to use a lot of tools. My art practice is pretty straightforward and simple. I feel art should be accessible. I share similar views on accessibility. One of the main reasons I dislike being categorized is that I wonder what would have happened if the teacher hadn't asked me to join the art club without seeing any talent. Then, I would never have been in it. I believe everyone should have the chance to express their creativity, whether it's creating a collage with a magazine or crafting a small air-dry clay sculpture. You don't have to be an "artist" to do crafts.

In previous conversations, we've chatted about how you started building your community in New York many years ago. Could you share how you started? For the longest time, I never really knew what I wanted to do. When I was in high school, I wanted to be a fashion designer, so I studied fashion in college. But then I realized I'm not that passionate about fashion. I love clothes and the construction of them, but I wasn't as enthusiastic as other students about this designer or that designer. What's trendy? I don't know and don't think I am interested.

That's when I realized that what I thought I would be was not really what I wanted to be. Even after I graduated from college, I didn't work in the fashion industry. I did a freelancing gig, and I really did not enjoy working there. From then on, I started eliminating what I didn't want to do.

I figured I'd try something else. I love coffee, so I started working as a barista. From there, I took on managing the coffee shop's social media and developed other skills I never thought I had.

I was also very lucky to learn social media as a skill at a time when it had just started growing. After that, I bounced around to work at shops that were mostly customer-based jobs with products that I liked. After being a barista, I worked at the plant store. I loved learning about plants and how to take care of them.

From there, I ended up in a hospitality group focused on food because I loved one of their restaurants. When I used to go, I became friends with the manager. It evolved into a role where I assisted them with social media, and then I handled brand marketing for that group.

Overall, I focused on doing jobs that combined my passions for coffee, plants, and food. The hospitality group job allowed me to wear many hats, including social media management, PR, and hosting soft openings. This job helped me realize I wanted to do events.

I feel I'm very lucky, and I don't want to jinx it. Knocks on the table. Honestly, I wasn't actively looking for any of these jobs. I always wanted to give myself a break. For example, after the coffee job, I would be walking around Williamsburg. I stumbled upon a plant store that I loved, and when I saw they were hiring, I casually dropped off my résumé. For the social media job at the hospitality group, I wasn't actively looking, but I said, "Why not?" when I was asked, since I knew how to run social media anyways. My experience evolved from there.

I've always admired your tenacity, your eagerness to enjoy life, and your willingness to learn, which has led you to form genuine connections with people. At a recent workshop that you hosted with Haco in Williamsburg, you shared with me that you met the owner because you used to walk by her shop during your breaks working at the plant store. This is another beautiful example of how your long-term connections sparked from being yourself!

To me, it also seems like you're a big people person, especially as you seek to build community. Could you share more about the ways you find to connect with other people? So when you say I'm a people person, I'm actually not. It's weird because I want to be alone most of the time. It's a funny joke with all the hospitality group friends, where we hate people! Laughing Well, we don't actually hate people, but sometimes there are just people who are tricky to deal with. No matter how solo you are, at some point, we need work and humans.

Does making connections with people matter to you, or does it just happen to you along the way? I can never work a job that I don't like. It doesn't matter how much money I earn; I would die. I think I would actually die, which is why I've ended up in jobs I genuinely enjoy. If it's something that I absolutely have no interest in, every day would be a drag. I would have absolutely no motivation—like I can't do it. Sometimes, I admire people who can actually shut that part of their brain off and go and do it. I think it's amazing, but personally, I cannot do it because, for so long, I've been free to do whatever I want and have been so lucky to be able to.

Even at my current job, of course, there are a lot of ups and downs, but in general, it's still something I very much enjoy doing. I appreciate the balance between working on production and logistics, and on event days, I also get to connect with people. I feel a lot of satisfaction when my production and logistics plans work. That, and everyone is happy, having a good time, and understands the message of the event.

Were there any career moments, projects, or experiences that you've had that really resonated with you? Perhaps something that made you feel like you had a great time and that this is the right path for you? Yes, I curated an event called "Hungry" with the hospitality group. The hospitality group itself was most focused on opening restaurants, so there was always a focus on food. The event combined food, art, and performing arts.

The idea originated from my boss, whom I really liked working with. Back when he opened his first restaurant, he noticed he had a lot of international student customers. He aimed to create an opportunity to give back to the community by providing a platform for these international students to showcase their art. To apply for a visa, international students needed to have had their art featured in an exhibition, but realistically, many of these student artists without money would face challenges doing so. We wanted to make this easier.

As a food hospitality group, we also wanted to include a food portion. In my mind, chefs are also artists, so they can curate and create food. This would also be a platform for chefs to think outside the box. We asked chefs to present their signature dishes interestingly. For example, one of the restaurants was Take 31. We created a wooden box made of plywood with holes to hold paper cones, displaying the fried chicken, which was their signature dish. We gave them a "canvas" to think outside the box that wasn't just about working in the kitchen and their usual service.

Since we weren't a gallery or in the art world, we accepted artists of various standards and levels. Again, our goal was to provide a platform for people to showcase their art and encourage them to continue creating while connecting with a live audience. You can talk about the food and your artwork. It's hard to find a platform on your own outside of your friends.

I'm very proud of that project, which took place in Chelsea with over 300+ people for an all-day event. I'm very thankful for that boss because it's all trust. I didn't apply for an "event coordinator role" because I was focused on social media. But he asked, and I said, "Sounds great." This connects back to your desire to make art accessible. In this case, you provided a platform for creatives who might not have been able to do so on their own. You ended up forming an environment that facilitates those connections happening more naturally.

At that event, you also drew all the structures yourself and designed every single piece of it. Your boss then helped elevate you in your career because he saw your potential and trusted that you could figure it out. I honestly thought working at the hospitality group would be my last job ever because I really aligned with the boss's vision and his ideas about where he wanted to do well. And you can definitely continue to carry on that message as you grow in your career.

Where do you see yourself headed next? What's the not "grand goal" but the overarching thing you want to do? Earn money? laughing So I know obviously money is important. I loved being a freelancer for three years. I felt like that was the freest I've ever been in my entire life as a freelancer as an adult. Even though, of course, it has its own struggles.

There were times that I was like, "I don't even know what I'm making this month." But you really grow and learn a lot in a short period. So, first, I'm very proud of myself for doing that. Second, I have met so many people who have become my close friends during this period. And I really value and treasure that.

I often self-reflect to think about what I'm doing now and what I'm trying to do next. I ask myself if what I'm doing now is still serving me. Or is it at least working toward something that I want?

For a long time, I've really wanted to own a space to create a retreat or workshops while being my own boss. I aim to combine the skills I've gained from working in coffee, ceramics, and plants. Ideally, this space is located upstate, easily accessible by train, and serves as a place for people to truly relax and think, or not think, about life at all.

I love New York City, and it's hard to leave, especially since my family is here. But I think the city can get a bit suffocating because there's always so much going on. I want to create spaces where people can really relax and not have to plan.

I want to create and host my own workshops. I want to bring together my musician and artist friends and help create organic connections. That would be my dream. If I could save enough to make this dream a reality, that would be amazing.

I can see that all your experiences, whether freelance or in-house, bridge together your genuine curiosity, love, and interests, as well as your connection to people. I can see all of these things converging into the following hypothesis: creating and curating a space for people to continue forming those organic connections. It's very exciting as your friend and supporter to see you continue on in your journey. Maybe 10 years later! Ten years isn't too bad—this dream will come true more quickly than we realize.

At the end of the day, why do all the work you do and the future you are aiming for matter to you? From personal experience and feeling, I know there are a lot of different communities going on right now, but I feel like there can be more. I don't want these types of communities to die. Technology is advancing rapidly; people are always on their phones or watching TV. There's nothing wrong with that, but we're not really connecting and socializing with people unless we're being forced into that setting.

The goal for the upstate space is to make it a reminder for people, me included, that you can come, stay a few days, and slow down. Relearn what is important to you in life. There are so many things that we cannot control in the world, so we really need to look into the little things and the people around us. Perhaps we can go for a walk by a field with the person you're closest to, but haven't talked to in a while, because you're always busy with something else. I want to create an environment that supports and encourages that re-connection.

Do you have any advice for a younger Ka Yee? "You did a good job."

I would tell myself that it's fine to be where I'm at right now, where I'm freelancing and doing these random jobs. While it can be tricky because I'm not "technically" building a career in the same industry, and to others it may seem like I'm just "hopping around." I would remind myself that I'm simply growing differently.

When I think back on how I would put myself down at certain times because I felt like I wasn't really doing anything or growing... I would tell Ka Yee, "You did a good job. Give yourself some grace. And honestly, you work hard! Things will align once the right time is here."

I can also see how genuine you've stayed to yourself and how that has driven you to where you are today. I also have a lot of power to think the way that I do because I learned a lot from my mother.

My mother is one of the most curious people I have ever met in my life. She's so active that sometimes I think she needs to calm down. I'm very happy for her because she's doing all the things she loves. When she was younger, she didn't have the chance to do the things she wanted because she was always working and making money for someone else. Money for her family, including her parents and cousins.

So she would always give me the power to say, "You can do whatever you want." She always told me that even though you studied fashion, you don't have to be in the fashion industry. Even though sometimes she questions my freelancing jobs, which is very understandable for traditional Asian parents, she also likes to encourage what I'm doing. She's also very supportive. Even though she might not completely understand what I'm doing, she'll always say, "Do whatever you like."

That's why I always have a mindset of, "I just need to do things that I won't regret" and "I'm just going to do it."

That's awesome when parents can encourage us. That's especially hard culturally for both of us, who grew up in traditional Chinese households and are third-culture kids. There's so much that comes from our parents' generation that they grew up in and have either learned to embody or not. My mother also doesn't let tradition dictate the decisions I make. She realized a long time ago that for her and her children to have a better future, they needed to be allowed to figure things out on their own, which is quite rare. Yes, I'm super grateful as well.

Share a list of three things you'd like to recommend. You decide the topic.

These are habits that are great to have.

1. Wake up slightly earlier than your work time. Just try it once, and if it works for you, it works. If it doesn't, it's okay. When you wake up, don’t look at your phone. Get up, go make a coffee, a matcha, or a good breakfast. Give yourself time to rest your mind and then roll into your day.

2. Play with your closet. Dressing up is fun, and now that I'm an adult with money to buy stuff, I have more freedom to try new things and have fun. Little things really add to your life. Since I work in coordination and production, I always try to dress as comfortably as possible, which can lead to wearing sweats or starting to look a little sloppy. It didn't make me feel good, so I started looking into my clothes and playing with the pieces that I had. It really adds to your life to be excited.

3. Take a walk. Take a walk between your days. A walk is so important. Try to take a walk while you're on a call.

Everyone is different, but these are things I'm trying, and they have been helping me build healthier habits, and I love it. This is advice I take for myself.

What song do you currently have on repeat?

TOO BAD by G Dragon ft. Anderson Paak

Back in high school, I was obsessed with Big Bang. I've recently been looping G Dragon, specifically the song he made with Anderson Paak. I really like G Dragon as an artist—and he truly is an artist through and through.

With the recent comeback album he launched, he also created a show called "Good Day" that he works on and, in some ways, has inspired me. He brings old friends and invites new friends into the community—some are chefs, some are in the acting world, and some are painters. And it's cool because they come together to make a song, and he doesn't have to do something like that. But because he has the money and power to do it, he can, and this is what he wants.

Enjoyed the Conversation with Ka Yee Chan? You can find her on Instagram @kaayeecc.

Ka Yee is also passionate about giving back to Heart of Dinner.

Heart of Dinner’s mission works to directly address food insecurity and isolation experienced by Asian American seniors in New York City. As part of this Conversation, a donation was made to Heart of Dinner.

You can support Heart of Dinner by donating directly.

Meet Laura Sandoval, a Chilean and Peruvian designer and creative based in Brooklyn, NY. Laura moves through life with a deep curiosity—grounded in culture, community, and a constant openness to possibility. She reflects on growing up in the Chilean countryside, adapting to city life in Santiago, and how YouTube and filmmaking first sparked her creative drive. A short stint at film school in Peru eventually led her back to Santiago to pursue design, where she learned from niche-obsessed mentors and balanced her studies with professional work—often out of financial necessity. By graduation, Laura had already launched apps, joined startups, and found herself at Cornershop, a leading grocery delivery service, just weeks before its acquisition by Uber. That moment kicked off a whirlwind: leading design, scaling a team, integrating two companies, and ultimately relocating to New York—always following what felt possible.

Interviewed in April 2025 | This conversation has been edited for clarity and brevity.

Please introduce yourself. I'm Laura. Everyone calls me "Lau," which is short for Laura. I'm a product designer and human being. I just moved to Brooklyn from Santiago, Chile, which I'm so excited about. I would describe myself as curiosity-driven because that's what ultimately drives me.

Let's go back in time—perhaps your childhood in the countryside. Was there anything you'd like to share that stuck out to you? I really remember growing up in the countryside as a "free era." We used to live with my parents on this giant piece of land, we weren’t farmers but we did have chickens, dogs, and cats. I remember everything feeling…possible. I’d go out in the morning, explore through the fruit trees, play with rocks and sand… I remember exploring the hills around the area and having this vivid sense of freedom, which was very inspiring.

Did you grow up with many siblings or just your parents? It was mostly me and my mom. I was born in Peru—my dad is Peruvian, and my mom is Chilean. They divorced when I was around one year old, then my mom and I moved to Chile, and she married another man while my dad was still in Peru. Somewhere along the way one of my brothers, Andrés, moved with us from Peru for college.

My step dad and brother, who we lived with in the countryside, were always in Santiago —the capital city— for work and college, so it was mostly my mom and me in the countryside during the day, and they’d return at night. I did have a lot of friends from school, but because we were in a remote area, it was hard to meet people sometimes, or it'd have to be in a very arranged setting. So I spent a lot of time by myself.

What did you gravitate towards doing when you had so much alone time? I had a lot of imaginary friends, though I don't remember any of them, but my mom always reminds me. I would always be out and around exploring and "inventing" new things. Anytime I had a crazy idea, I would ask my mom, "Do you think this is possible?" and she'd say, "Yes!"

We moved to Santiago from the countryside when I was nine. My grandparents and extended family were also in Santiago, so it made sense for us to move. Moving was a big cultural shock. Moving from an environment where it was just us and nature to this huge city with a subway system and all these people and the roughness of the day-to-day, whereas the countryside was a bit more free flow and peaceful.

What was that transition from a smaller community to being immersed in the city as a nine-year-old like? What was your first impression? It was both exciting and frightening at the same time. I really struggled to fit in at the beginning, and there was a lot of bullying as well. Me being “the weird kid from the countryside” was a thing I remember. But at the same time, there were so many possibilities waiting to be explored within the city that it was also very exciting.

How did you begin to tap into those possibilities? This era was marked by the start of having internet access. At age 10, we started having internet access at home. It wasn't the internet we have today, where it's easily accessible at any given time. Wait, was it like where you'd get a CD in the mail and you put it into your big ol' computer? It was the kind of internet where you had to choose between the internet or using the phone where if you picked up the phone while someone was using it, you got the "eeeerrreeeeezzzzz" sound! Yes!!! Laughing

Since I was struggling to make friends in school, I ended up trying to find a place on the internet where I started to make a bunch of online friends—which, in hindsight, feels dangerous but turned out fine. I also leveraged a lot of the "freedom" I had when my mom would let me go, for instance, to the park by the corner near the house, but in reality I’d be taking the subway. I was a very irresponsible child, going to meet up with my online friends across the city. More than a decade later, I still keep in touch with these friends.

At the same time, I was also finding my place on the internet. I’m going to age myself here, but I loved the show iCarly. I loved the idea of having a web show, so when I discovered YouTube, I went crazy. My first neighbor in Santiago showed me that anyone could upload anything to YouTube—at first I thought only an agency could do it. It's like the one episode in The Office where Michael Scott says, "I've got to make sure that Youtube comes down to tape this."

I started uploading videos to YouTube, like stop-motion Legos and me talking to the camera. I was also trying to find a community on the internet. Were you learning how to do this on your own through the internet? Yes, and googling a lot. A lot of folks had similar experiences when the internet was coming up, and we were all really young trying to figure out things online if we didn’t know how to do something.

Did you notice if there was something you were learning that you also really enjoyed doing? The stop-motion stuff was really fun, especially spending two or three hours doing it and then seeing the final results. Not only it brought my toys to life, it also taught me how to adapt things like timing or how drastic to make the moves for it to look good. Having that quick iteration cycle going was really fun.

I was also playing with Microsoft Paint and trying to learn how to do frame-by-frame animation, which was a bit slower compared to recording with an actual camcorder but also really fun.

Wow—this reminds me of the video you created and shared about the Chilean money system. From how you confidently spoke to the camera to the editing and script, you were spot on. It came from your experience doing YouTube! A hundred percent. It was so fun for me to make because it was like a reunion for that side of my life. Like a good excuse to go into Final Cut Pro, color grade, and even experimenting with new filming techniques. I always love it when I get to overlap all the different past versions of myself.

During this time in your life, as you were transitioning into city life in Santiago and making friends online and offline, what and how did your friendships evolve? During this YouTube era, I started forming all kinds of friendships. Most of these friends were a lot older than me. I was 12, while many of them were 17 or 18, some already in college. Looking back, I have no idea why they hung out with me, but I love them and I love that they did. Back then, we’d smoke cigarettes together and go on trips for meetups with local YouTubers, trying to build community. I tried to attend every meetup, which started in local parks where I’d go by myself, but once I started having a more established group of friends, we'd travel around Chile to go to larger meetups together. Those were my first times traveling without my parents, which was scary but also exciting.

I remember going to Concepción —a city in southern Chile— a lot. I still have many friends there, and now that I’ve moved to New York, one of my besties—from Concepción—came up to help me with the move. I keep going back to this city and have such an emotional connection with it.

Concepción was also the first city I traveled to on my own. My friends and I eventually started making more friends over there and I even started dating someone, so I was always visiting. It was so much fun. With this more established group of YouTube friends, we launched our own projects, including a parody account of one of the biggest Chilean YouTube channels at the time, based in Concepción. You're just drawn to this city over and over again!

I was only 14 when we posted a parody of one of the biggest Chilean films at the time, and the film director actually reached out. All of a sudden, TV producers were asking if we wanted to work for them, and all these doors swung open toward a possible media career—it was incredibly exciting.

Were you seriously considering this career path in film? What was it like hearing about this at such a young age? It was weird, to be honest. We weren't expecting it. I was just having fun with my friends, but seeing that we could put something out there and people would find value in it, whether intended or not, was eye-opening. We’d even get stopped on the streets sometimes, especially when we went to Concepción. It was quite a niche experience.

I continued to be an independent Youtuber into my adulthood. Somewhere along the way, my friends and I ended our side project, but we continued being friends, collaborating, and traveling together.

But then, I decided to move to Peru and somewhat doubled down on YouTube. In Peru, I had a very similar experience—growing my channel independently, producing more and better quality content and seeing more people find value in it in return. It again got the point of some people recognizing me in certain places, but thankfully it always remained niché as well. It did scale to a point where it started being a bit uncomfortable for me, though. Well, yes, you're a normal human being. Exactly.

I remember this one time when I was 17 in Peru. I was unhappy with a few things in my life and thinking about moving back to Chile. I was walking down the streets of Lima, about to cry, when a girl recognized me from the internet and asked if we could take a picture. Oh no!

I did also receive so much love, which was really special. People would sometimes offer to buy me coffee or dinner if they saw me out and about by myself, and I got so many letters from younger kids in my high school who watched my videos when I graduated. I still keep and cherish all of them, and brought them with me to New York.

I moved from Chile to Peru in 2014 because I wasn't very happy there. I really liked Santiago, but I didn't like my high school. I felt it was very uninspiring. Any time you tried to do anything outside the books, the entire school vibe was to repress it in some way.

I also just hated school. I always did terribly in Santiago. In Chile, high school lasts four years, but in Peru it lasts three, so I thought it was perfect. That meant I could move and, as a bonus, do one less school year, so I left for Peru and moved in with my dad.

Moving to Peru really helped me explore my creativity more. In Chile, the school was more about getting your academics done and maybe some traditional extracurriculars like sports, whereas in Peru it was more freeform. For instance, I had some very basic knowledge on how to make and publish websites (using Apple’s old iWeb app and some YouTube tutorials), and while in Chile that was considered a distraction, or even something to make fun of, my Peruvian high school was really great at celebrating those qualities, and creating the space for students to explore them. Is this a cultural thing? I think Chile has a very strong culture of preserving the status quo. Change can be very challenging and everyone is sort of expected to do similar things, I feel like. Another example is that being a YouTuber or having side projects was very encouraged in Peru but a reason for laughter in Chile, so it was a refreshing change.

So, as you double down on being a YouTuber in Peru, what happens in this era that makes you consider moving back to Chile? It's all connected to filmmaking and design, actually.

Of course, I had an amazing time in Peru and made many good friends with whom I still keep in touch. I also made some really special connections with my teachers, who became mentors, which is very nice since I didn't really have the chance to find them in Chile.

Also, because I had these very chaotic preteen years of smoking, partying, and being out and about, I was no longer as interested in that side of things in Peru, so I really got the chance to become more professional with my side gigs. I became better at coding websites or making YouTube videos, and I started to think of those things as a potential career, especially as I was approaching adulthood at that time.

After high school, I had a booming YouTube channel at its prime. I also started working as a freelance photographer and videographer when I was 17, through a made-up “studio” I created. I coded a website for it and built a portfolio with some of my work, and called it a studio so it’d look more professional, but it was actually a one-woman operation. My older brother, who always had a business mind, really saw the value in what I was doing, so he helped me a lot.

My brother Andrés shaped a lot of who I am today. He gave me endless frameworks to think through life’s challenges, took me to New York for the first time, and back in Lima he helped me connect to people interested in my work, as well as how to charge for it. I always wanted to do everything for free because I didn't know what value I could add, but he kept me grounded and even helped me invoice when dealing with larger clients. It's great that you had someone look out for you and teach you to charge for your work at a young age. Totally, and his guidance continues to be useful today, many many years later. I’m extremely grateful to have him in my life.

So, after high school, I decided to study filmmaking in Peru. My plan when moving to Peru was always to return to Chile, but I had made such special connections there that part of me wanted to stay, so I decided to give it a shot but then quickly realized that while intentions were good and people were eager to set you up for success, the infrastructure just wasn't there yet. Film school was very cool but also very limiting. The school had only been around for like 2 years, and the Peruvian filmmaking industry wasn't as big or disruptive, so it started feeling a bit uninspiring.

When did you start to notice this? About two months into film school, I remember having too much free time and generally feeling like I wasn’t being intellectually challenged. They would teach us how to use basic software and make us do written exams on how to use stuff like Adobe Premiere—I kept thinking, why can't we figure this out on our own? It felt like we were investing a lot of time, energy and resources to learn how to use a hammer instead of how to build a house.

I also realized that, even though I loved filmmaking, I was a terrible cinephile. I haven't watched many classic movies, to be honest, and I’m not as drawn to them as I feel like I was expected to be. That's how I feel about design sometimes.

What happens next after you realize that filmmaking and film school in Peru weren't the path to go down? I got into a fussy moment career-wise. Filmmaking had been such a core part of my life at that point that without it I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do next. And so, my brother, once again saving the day, said “let's think about where you’d want to go, and then we can reverse engineer which career path could take you there.” Jamming with him about this made me realize I ultimately love creating, and putting things out there into the world that hopefully add value to people’s lives—filmmaking was one of them, but it wasn’t the only one. We arrived at design cause it felt like the most flexible path forward. I could still design a film or a media piece, but I wouldn’t be limited to one format. I started looking into design options in Peru, but they were basically non-existent, so I ended up going back to Chile, which has one of the best design schools in LatAm.

I didn't really learn about design until I got to college. I wasn't exposed to the career nor knew it was a viable option until maybe then. When did you know doing design was a career? I was always very interested in technology growing up. In parallel to this YouTube era, I’d always be mocking up graphics, websites, and eventually even basic apps on software like Keynote or iWeb. It proved really useful to support the sidelines of my YouTube channel, too. On top of this, my brother would always talk to me about new trends going on at the time, like “design thinking,” so by the time I joined college I guess it wasn’t completely foreign to me, but it was definitely recent knowledge as well.

So, how did the move back to Chile happen? Similarly to how I moved to Peru, I asked my mom if she would receive me back, and she generously said yes. So I quit film school and spent a few months doing nothing but my YouTube channel, while waiting for the second admissions window to open. At this time, I also began to have a slight obsession with transit.

Slight derail —pun intended— but navigating Lima as an adult feels very different from navigating Lima as a teenager. Lima is a very large and chaotic city, so moving around is tough. Lima’s first Metro line opened in 2014, almost 30 years after construction began, which is insane. People mostly move around through shadow buses called “combis”, which are insanely cheap but have a lot of unwritten rules around them and aren’t the most reliable. This lack of infrastructure made me realize and appreciate how lucky I was in Santiago to have things like predictable routes, a stable and growing subway system. In contrast to Lima, Santiago opened its first Metro line in the 70’s, and is on track to open its 9th line by 2030. Thinking back to my 10 or 12-year-old self, navigating the subway and being able to move safely around the city was really special in hindsight.

I began obsessing about transit as a service and how different cities approach it, optimize it, and ultimately design it. I asked myself, if Santiago was to design a graphic identity for its transit system, how would I approach it? What do other cities take into account for theirs? I read about Transport for London, the MTA, the beautifully designed Moscow Metro Map, and ultimately allowed myself to wonder and explore these questions through design, always sharing my thoughts and explorations on the internet.

This created a great vicious cycle for me cause it ultimately allowed me to jumpstart my design career through something I was personally passionate about, and by the time I started design school, I already had a small design portfolio and had met with all these people in the industry who were somehow interested in what I had to say, from academics to Chile’s own Vice Minister of Transport, who eventually became a Twitter mutual.

That's awesome. When I speak with early career designers, many are conflicted about showing "real projects" on their portfolios. What you had was a real project—you conceptualized something, shared how you made it real, and had conversations that grew from it.

Totally. The main difference between a real and conceptual project is usually that one was "requested" versus the other wasn't, but that doesn't really matter at the end of the day. Design can be a really powerful tool to express a point of view, and to visualize how we envision reality to be. Whenever I talk with early career designers, I try to emphasize that we don’t need anyone’s permission to do that.

How and when did design school come in? Taking a step back, so in Chile you need to take some standardized tests to get into college, but because I finished high school in Peru, I had a slightly different process. I didn't realize it then, but applying to design school through this special process was a very competitive and risky move, cause there are only five slots per admission cycle, and you’re competing against up to 60 other folks looking to get in through one of them, including Chileans who studied abroad, people with special needs, distinguished sport alumni, etc.

The most crucial part of the process was an interview with the curriculum director and a panel of teachers who evaluated each candidate at the end. It was sort of like a job interview—they asked questions about design, how I’d approach different problem spaces, and most importantly, what would I do if I don’t get in. The fact that I had all this work prior to the interview—the photography & filmmaking studio, the transit design projects, etc—made a world of difference, because I was able to let my work speak for myself.

Everything was publicly accessible through my websites, so they were able to see it during the interview and ask questions about it. I told them if I didn’t get in, I’d double-down on these projects and reapply on the next admissions cycle, but luckily that wasn’t necessary. Wow, and the question "What would you do if you didn't get this opportunity?" is such a good one because it can be tough to answer. Totally. It caught me off guard at the moment, but I’m happy I could leverage it to showcase my work. The school’s academic coordinator later told my mom and I as I was enrolling in school, that the panel had been “blown away” by it and were honored to have me. It was truly special.

What was your design school experience like? My design school was an aggregator of very talented folks, each with their own niché interests. My curriculum director, who later became a dear colleague and mentor, was also obsessed with transit and had his own wayfinding design studio on the side. We’d talk for hours about maps, mobility, graphic design, typography. I had teachers obsessed with color, science and history. I had teachers who had dedicated their careers to lighting design, and some who obsessed about fashion or the political implications of what we were putting into the world. Everyone had their own interests and unique path to design, and the combination was truly greater than the sum of its parts.

We all started on the same curriculum, where we studied the history and foundations of industrial and graphic design. It was the opposite of my experience at Peruvian film school in that the emphasis was always on teaching us how to think and quickly exposing us to trial-and-error cycles, rather than leading with specific tools. We almost didn’t touch a computer for the first few years. We’d do lots of sketching, paper-cutting, and research, and present weekly progress on our assignments through posters or decks we also had to design. We’d spend days at the workshop working with wood and take turns sleeping on-campus while working with fiberglass throughout the night. I learned very quickly that I was terrible at industrial design.

I guess my journey—I don't want to say it got interrupted—but my first year was marked by my parents not being able to afford design school anymore. My student loan didn’t cover the entirety of the cost either, so it was either quitting design school or figuring out a way to pay for it by myself, which is what I ultimately did.

I began socializing that I was open to work and, thankfully, managed to get the ball rolling quickly. I got poached by a local graphic designer—who was familiar with my work through Twitter— to work as his assistant for a few months. My curriculum director, who had always said he’d love to work with me at some point, then offered me an assistant role on a last-minute project to redesign Santiago’s transit graphic identity. Eventually, I landed at a local cycling-tracker app start-up as a Design Engineer, thanks to the founder also knowing my work through social media.

As I navigated the professional world and learned from all of these designers who were far ahead in their careers, college started to become a background activity. I had very little free time, juggling both work and college, so I began optimizing my college involvement to prioritize the two or three classes I felt most beneficial for my professional growth, and did just enough for all the rest.

Did you finish college? I did. Chile has an extra year compared to the United States, so we have a five-year program. I finished at the four-year mark, the bare minimum for the US and the rest of the world. Some industries in Chile, like the public sector, would limit my seniority for not having that fifth year, but it’s not really the case elsewhere and even internally it can be replaced by a masters degree if I wanted to.

I ask about finishing school because not everyone does. Yet, finishing school doesn't equate to success. It's more about personal decisions and timing to get you where you want to go versus checking every box. In this case, since you were already working, you decided not to check the fifth-year box. Absolutely. Some of the best designers and product thinkers I’ve worked with didn’t have a college degree, including my old company’s Head of Design and Founder/Head of Product. It’s a really personal choice. I did want to quit at many different times, but was encouraged by many mentors —including my brother Andrés— not to, since having a professional degree would be really helpful if I ever wanted to expand outside of Chile. Once again, he was right!

How did you go from finishing your degree to becoming the Head of Consumer Design at Cornershop? I started leading Product Design for Consumer apps at Cornershop —the largest grocery delivery app in LatAm— in 2020, but 2019 was the year that glued all the pieces together for me, and really solidified the foundations for everything that came after.

While I was working as a Design Engineer at Kappo, the cycling-tracker app, I was lucky enough to pick-up a few high-paying freelance jobs. My curriculum director and I had become close working buddies at this point, so he’d always call me to collaborate on new gigs. I was able to pay off the remaining year of my college tuition in advance and shifted gears to my next personal goal—moving into my own place and becoming financially independent.

At this point, I had also launched a few independent transit apps, like a Facebook Messenger chatbot for Santiago’s transit system, which the Ministry of Transport tried to acquire the year prior, and an iOS app for checking your transit card balances, which I still maintain to this day.

Since I no longer had to earn a steady monthly income to cover my college tuition, at least until the next year, I quit my job at the cycling-tracker app and started thinking about my next chapter.

One random night, I stumbled upon a tweet from Cornershop’s Creative Director, Daniel López Rivas, who was both a Twitter mutual and the owner of one of my favorite coffee shops in Santiago, saying Cornershop was hiring across most of its departments. We were both familiar with each other’s work, so we got to talking and he introduced me to Matías Martínez, the company’s founding designer and Head of Design. He was also familiar with my work.

As a side note, it had always been my dream to work at Cornershop. I had been a loyal user since I moved back to Chile in 2016 and always admired their craft and commitment to quality. They were truly unmatched. I actually applied to work there as a customer service agent back in 2016, before starting college, but was rejected. Well, thank goodness, because it led you here!

Exactly!

So I started chatting with Matías on a Tuesday, right after talking to Daniel. We met for coffee on Thursday —at Daniel’s coffee shop— with Matías and Osvaldo Mena, Cornershop’s Head of Engineering at the time. They both had my apps installed on their phones. We talked for a few hours, discussed my salary via Twitter DMs the night after, and I joined Cornershop the following Monday as a Design Engineer. It’s the fastest I’ve ever been hired, I think.

Incredible. Around 2021, I recall Uber acquiring Cornershop, which led to us eventually meeting in 2022 and working together. Could you share your experience leading up to the present day, especially from being part of a team going through an acquisition? Joining Cornershop was a pivotal moment in my career. I remember going into the office before and after classes feeling a strong sense of “wow, what the hell am I doing here?” We were around 300 people, maybe six on the design team, and everyone was so talented that I felt like I was learning more each time I went into work than I’d learn in a month of design school. It was truly inspiring.

And to make things even more exciting, right after I joined, news broke that Uber was acquiring a majority stake in Cornershop. I remember my brother texting me that day: “Did you just accidentally land a job at UBER?” I couldn’t believe it.

A big part of why Cornershop hired me in 2019 was my independent apps—I wanted them to feel smooth, snappy, native to mobile phones, but I only really knew how to code for the web, so they were actually coded like a website, but packaged like an app. I spent hours obsessing over the details, and would always be studying ways to make them feel snappier or to make interactions smoother. I remember Matías —who’s also the best iOS engineer I know— telling me he thought my apps were native felt like my biggest achievement.

Coincidentally, Uber wanted to leverage Cornershop’s tech stack and expertise to tap into the grocery delivery market, and Cornershop wanted to leverage Uber’s scale across Rides and Eats to reach new customers, but delivering groceries is a whole different game than delivering on-demand meals, so we couldn’t “just add grocery stores” to Uber Eats at the time. Building support natively would’ve been a gigantic undertaking, especially pre-pandemic where demand didn’t quite justify it yet. So both companies decided the first step towards integrating would be to somehow integrate Cornershop’s website on both Rides and Eats. The big issue was… it felt too much like a website. It didn’t even work on mobile.

Matías and Osvaldo quickly tapped me for the challenge, and I was asked to make Cornershop’s website “responsive”, which would eventually allow us to theme it as an Uber product and plug it into Uber’s ecosystem. I guess I had the right obsession at the right time!

Taking on this challenge was no easy task though. It was my first time working on such a large codebase, so I leaned heavily on more senior engineers to navigate it. We ended up rewriting almost 20 thousand lines of code—at a time where “vibe coding” and generative AI weren’t a thing. Again, I obsessed over the details to keep the illusion of a native product. I wanted Uber Grocery to feel like a first-class citizen in Uber’s ecosystem.

All of a sudden, I found myself invited to all these sessions and dinners with the Cornershop founders, including the CEO, and Uber executives flying to Chile to check-in on what I was working on. The first time I gave a demo to the team, I remember everyone going: “Are you sure you’re on the website and not the app?”

We launched Uber Grocery only 5 months after, and added more than four billion dollars in annual recurring revenue through it in the following 3 years, before sunsetting the website.

As we scaled Cornershop towards the end of 2020, we decided to split our Product Design team into verticals. Our once-300-person startup was now on track to hire its 1,000th employee, and the timing felt right to scale our design operation into more focused pods. As soon as I graduated college, Matías asked me to lead Consumer Product Design. By that point, I had a proven track-record of shipping high-complexity projects, had worked with both Uber and Cornershop leadership, and, in the words of Matías, “couldn’t be fooled by less-committed engineers.” thanks to my early exposure to all sides of the business. He said he “couldn’t picture anyone else taking the role,” which was truly special—for me, it was a testament to all the previous pieces of my career coming together for the first time.

I was tasked with hiring our Consumer Product Design team, and leading the way for our iOS, Android, Web, and now Uber apps. It was one of the most challenging but fulfilling periods of my career.

And once again, you were open to the possibility. True! Thus, you were able to embrace the experience more. Your natural disposition seems to be to embrace what's possible, which is awesome!

Shutting down Cornershop and transitioning the team into Uber was a similar story. Uber had acquired the rest of Cornershop in 2021—making it the first Chilean unicorn and the largest acquisition of a Chilean company to date, and leadership decided we’d integrate everything natively the year after.

As a few folks prepared to leave, including our Head of Design, I randomly got a meeting invite on my calendar from Uber’s LatAm Grocery Director, who was acting as Cornershop’s interim “CEO.” The meeting was just him, me, and my HR rep. Honestly, at first I thought I was going to get fired. I had never spoken with him before, but he knew exactly who I was and wanted me to integrate Cornershop’s Product Design team—which had grown to 37 Product Designers and Design Managers across five verticals at that point— into the Uber org. He thought we’d only be able to migrate six or seven designers, so his ask was that I figure out the best way to navigate this and migrate as many people as I could. Woah! I had no clue that happened.

I had no instruction manual, but nor did I have one for anything that came before! So I just said “sure, whatever, we'll figure it out.”

Cornershop was pretty much still an independent company at this point, so I started by building as many bridges as I could. I set up a recurring meeting with Uber’s Delivery Design Director, met with Uber’s Delivery Design Program Manager to get a better sense of how things worked and how my team could better support the company’s design needs, and started poking around to meet with as many Product Managers and Designers as I could, to get insights, gain momentum and hopefully accelerate collaboration. My time with design leadership was limited, so I felt like the most efficient way to approach it was to gain as much context as I could myself instead of waiting for those times to get it. That way, when the time came to discuss logistics, I’d already be familiar with what was going on, and could identify collaboration opportunities independently.

On the other hand, at Cornershop, we didn’t really have much documentation or formal processes for a lot of stuff, so I worked with our own Design Leadership to proactively set up documents and Google Sheets for anything we anticipated could be useful during this time, like performance reviews, featured projects per designer, strengths, career paths, etc. It was, again, all about optimizing for efficiency and making sure we had everything we needed during those small decision making times with Uber’s Design leadership. I also started sending weekly updates to our broader design team —who had been navigating uncertainty for a while— to give a sense of momentum and continuity.

In the end, we managed to migrate at least 13 designers —more than twice than we’d initially estimated— to full time roles at Uber. It was bittersweet in that I had to let go most of my team, but this was also the first time in history a Chilean start-up integrated into an American company like Uber, so I’m extremely proud of the work we did.

Your role has shifted since joining Uber—what was that transition like for you?

Uber’s leveling process for Cornershop was a bit strange in that seniority levels were assigned by salary instead of role, capping the levels at “Senior” —typically reserved for department heads—and prorating by salary bands below. In my case, because I reported to our Head of Design, I was leveled one level below senior, and had to switch back to being an individual contributor to continue at the org.

We all got our levels as I was leading the migration, so this obviously blew up internally and suddenly I had to be the face of bad news. My main focus was on getting as many people as possible a role, and making sure all voices on the team were heard, so I remember spending many late nights on Slack DMs or impromptu Zoom chats with HR or the founders, who at this point didn’t have that much power themselves. I wasn’t paying much attention to my level in particular, and instead decided to trust that things would naturally find their place in the long run, and I’d find my place to add value again. Obviously, you've been able to do that to become a crucial member of the team.

Since joining, you've recently moved from Santiago to New York! What spurred the international move? I always dreamed about moving to New York, but never thought it’d be possible in my lifetime. I dreamt about it as a child and fantasized about living here when I visited for the first time in 2015, but could not see a path where that would happen unless maybe I studied for a Master's Degree or something like that. Uber has really changed possibilities for me in the last few years.

In 2023, I got to attend the Grace Hopper Conference, one of the largest conferences for women and non-binary people in tech, held in Orlando, Florida. I remember coming back to Santiago afterwards feeling not only inspired. But also like, regardless of my employer, I wanted to be where the action was.

At the same time, I had just bought and remodeled my own place in Santiago a few months prior and all the incentives keeping me at Uber—inherited from my previous role at Cornershop— were approaching their expiration date, so I found myself in between crossroads. Looking ahead 1 or 2 years into my career, for me it was either leaving Uber to start my own thing, or doubling down and pursuing an international move. It seemed personal and professional became intertwined.

Now that we're in the present day and you've moved to New York, why do any of your experiences or decisions matter to you? There's something inherently fun about making things that other people use. And so, looking back from the YouTube days to designing for Uber, I feel like the underlying fun part for me is the same. Working on something that’s bigger than myself, getting to meet and collaborate with fun and talented people in the process, and people finding value in what we decide to put into the world at the end—and then doing it all over again.

What advice would you give to a younger you? I probably should've been more unhinged. laughing Wait, explain! Well, thinking back to when we launched Uber Grocery, for example, I spent my 22nd birthday on Figma and VSCode rushing to get all the details ironed out for our upcoming launch the week after. It was a Sunday, and I had both college & work the next day. Sure, we were well paid for it, but in hindsight—I probably should’ve been at the club.

I'd also tell my younger self that being confident in your work is not an inherently bad thing. I feel like I lost a lot of time dismissing my wins and jumping too quickly into the next goal, but taking things a bit slower could have been cool. I feel like all these things happened so fast. Right, and you've just arrived in New York. No, literally. Sometimes, even in Santiago, I would look around my apartment and wonder, "How could I even afford all of this? How and when did all of this happen?"

It would have been nice to allow myself to enjoy each moment a bit more. I'm trying to be more intentional about practicing that as I get older.

Could you share a list of three recommendations—you pick the topic.

I have a gazillion iPhone notes of random things I could recommend! One of my favorites is music albums. These are some my favorites lately:

1. Terrace Martin and Gallant's Sneek. From 2023 but I only discovered it recently. Love the little jazz bits and how modern it feels at the same time. Great for sketching, doing something chill, or just appreciating the view. I wish I could listen to it for the first time again.

2. 47 EP by Chezile. I stumbled upon a song from this album on an IG post and immediately went looking for more—and thank god there was! Loving Chezile’s work so far and can’t wait to see what he does next.

3. Feel feelings by Soko. Another one I wish I could experience for the first time again. I had “Replaceable Heads” on repeat for most of last winter. 20 out of 10.

What song do you currently have on repeat in the same music theme?

La trama y el desenlace by Jorge Drexier

This is one of my favorite songs of all time, by one of my favorite artists of all time. Jorge Drexler originally studied medicine but later pivoted to his actual calling in life and became a musician in his early thirties. Since then, he’s earned 15 Latin Grammys and was the first Uruguayan to win an Oscar for one of his songs. “La Trama y el Desenlace” (“The Plot and the Unraveling”) talks about how sometimes beauty lies not in grand finales, but in the unraveling of the everyday plot.

Enjoyed the Conversation with Laura Sandoval? You can find her at

https://lausandoval.com and @laurasideral on Instagram, X, and LinkedIn.

Laura is also passionate about giving back to the New York City Dyke March.

The New York City Dyke March is a protest march where thousands of Dykes take the streets each year in celebration of beautiful and diverse Dyke lives, to highlight the presence of Dykes within our community, and in protest of the discrimination, harassment, and violence we face in schools, on the job, and in our communities. A donation was made (by west & ease and matched by Laura!) to the New York City Dyke March as part of this Conversation.

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Meet Hope Idaewor: a Nigerian-born, Atlanta-raised design researcher, educator, and mentor based in Seattle, Washington. In this conversation, Hope opens up about her experience growing up in a Nigerian-American household, and how her father played a pivotal role in shaping her self-confidence and pursuit of excellence. She reflects on the formative moments that introduced her to the world of computer science and UX research—some inspiring, others challenging—and how building confidence helped her push through the discouraging parts. We dive into her focused work ethic, her determination to break into the tech industry, and how that drive has carried her through roles at major companies like Microsoft, Uber, and more. Hope also shares what it means to her to give back—whether it’s mentoring others or staying grounded in family life as a mom and wife—all while continuing to grow in her career.

Interviewed in January 2025 | This conversation has been edited for clarity and brevity.

Please introduce yourself. Hello, everyone. I'm Hope Idaewor, a Senior Researcher at Microsoft. I'm currently living in Seattle with my husband and son.

I immigrated from Nigeria as a kid and grew up in Georgia. A lot of my life experiences, how I was raised, and how I navigated my life all connect back to my roots. My culture is very family-oriented, and I am the first child of five kids. It also brings in a piece of my personality—that go-getter mindset I’ve developed over time. Being the first in my family to go through college in America, I didn’t have a choice. That drive had to be there.

Pursuing a career in tech started from home. My dad is a self-made entrepreneur and IT consultant and has been in the tech industry for 20 or 30 years since being in this country, and he's done a lot of amazing stuff. It's a huge inspiration and connects to why I chose to get into Computer Science.

What do you think makes your upbringing unique and how has that shaped who you are today? I grew up in America but consider myself a Nigerian American, with my upbringing in a relatively traditional African household. My perspective now differs from when I was younger and how I saw my upbringing.

What was your perspective then versus now? I don’t think I realized how much my parents truly sacrificed until I got older. My dad started from scratch, working on his PhD in Economics in Nigeria to then come [to America] and started from blue-collar jobs, then eventually pivoting in a completely different space. He got into tech as a database administrator. He got in around the internet boom and landed a job at Oracle in the late 90s and early 2000s—when everything started. He came in at a good time and was observant enough to discover that having skills in tech was becoming increasingly important.

That's why he picked that career path. He taught himself database management, consulted for several companies in the U.S. and globally in the 2000s, then decided to help others and opened an IT training academy. He started pouring back into the diaspora, helping other immigrants and people of color up-skill themselves the same way he did.

So that was immensely inspiring, he got me my first computer when I was about 7 or 8. But there was some internal pressure I think that came with it, that I felt growing up. Having A's was expected, and I did well in elementary school. But when I got to middle and high school, I started to get into the social element, and I struggled with really stepping into myself. Where we lived in Georgia, there weren't a lot of immigrants or Africans living there at the time, so I started to feel like I needed to fit in somehow. For example, I would start unknowingly masking my accent to fit in more with the American kids (both black and white), and simplify my last name so my friends could pronounce it “better.”

I started to get more focused on fitting in, dating, than on educational excellence or joining academic clubs that would help boost my resume for college. When it came time for high school graduation and applying for colleges—I didn’t even want to go to the University of Georgia at first. It’s one of the top public schools in the state, so of course my parents were pushing for it. But back then, I just wanted to follow my friends who were all going to a different school in the state. My dad ended up forcing me to apply and accepting the invitation to attend. I was pissed.

Looking back at it now, that was the best decision he ever made for me. I met a lot of great people from all over, learned a lot, started to openly embrace my Nigerian identity for the first time, and truly grew out of the “bubble” I grew up in.

So that's an example of perspective shifting as I got older, but it also reflects the pressure of growing up in a first-generation household and as someone shaping the way for the rest of my siblings.

Were there any particular values that your father wanted to instill in you? What helped you realize his guidance helped you make the best decision for your future? He was trying to get me to always reach for the highest bar, shoot for the best, and see the best within myself.

He started from scratch and self-funded and started several businesses even after his academy. So he always instilled this value of, 'You can be excellent. You are excellent. You just have to do the work to get there, but also believe in yourself and that you can do it.'

He also ensured that I understood what it meant to think independently and be my own person rather than following others. That guidance and support, along with my own decisions, had a lasting impact. There's almost this shortsightedness that you have as a child, and your parents are there to guide you and ensure you can see beyond that.

Your dad also tried to push you to be yourself. I can see where who you are stems from that part of your upbringing, which involved having someone, in this case, your father, be confident in you to help you see the confidence in yourself.

So, what happens next as you decide to study at the University of Georgia? Were there any key moments that helped you as you entered the working world or as a young adult? Yeah, gosh, it's so hard to summarize because so many things happened in those four years!

But three things come to mind.

For context, since my dad always had computers around and got us personal computers pretty young, I always dabbled in coding. I taught myself Graphic Design, HTML and CSS in high school. Then I decided to pursue Computer Science since it felt the most relevant to my interests.

First key moment: my very first computer science class is the most memorable thing that comes to mind. My instructor was a guy who worked at Google as an intern and was also a PhD student. I remember the first day when I walked into the auditorium-style class; I was probably one of four girls, and one of two black people in the class.

We first started with a "Hello World" exercise in Java. All I remember is how technical and nerdy it was, but how genuinely happy and excited I was. It was very interesting, seeing how simple commands could make my computer do certain things. It was literally a new language, and I couldn't wait to learn more.

The way I look at our careers and the things that we do and spend 40 hours a week on, I think we need to love what we're doing and that there should be some connection that doesn't make it feel mundane and still feels integrated into our life, purpose, and all these things.

And I remember that day saying, "Oh my god, I can't wait to continue to learn software development and to be this developer and write more code." Granted, it became much more difficult after just coding "Hello world."

That moment was memorable because I remember how I felt in that class regardless of being the obvious minority in the room. I didn't really feel any “imposter syndrome.” At the moment, if anything, that was overshadowed by me just feeling like, "I can’t believe I get to actually do this every day.”

The second key moment is almost the opposite of that first memory in my first year of taking that first Computer Science class.

In senior year I had an appointment with my research advisor, the head of the Computer Science department at the time.

We were preparing for graduation and I needed four remaining Computer Science classes. I was a little behind in a few credits as I didn't take the right classes freshman year, so I needed a bit more to graduate on time.

The research advisor told me, "It's not possible for you to take these four classes and graduate in the spring. You're not going to be able to do that. He said, “my smartest students can't do that. You definitely can't do that."

Looking back at it, I actually agree that taking that many CS classes at one time was a bit of a stretch, but there was a layer of disbelief and disappointment I felt, in how he was so quick to assume I would fail before I tried. It wasn't a conversation. It was like he just made up his mind and was telling me I was out of luck.

After that meeting, I registered for the four classes that semester and passed them all. Guess who shook my hand and handed me my diploma on graduation day?

That memory stands out to me because that was a time I believed in myself even when someone told me I couldn't do something. Because back in high school, I didn't have many of these moments where I felt like I could do something on my own or even had support from someone to go against the grain.

Finally, one last moment, probably the most important, was when I went to the Grace Hopper Conference during my junior year in college in Phoenix, Arizona. I loved this conference—it was inspiring, just great. I ended up meeting a black woman who was a UX researcher. It was the first time that I met someone in the CS field who was a researcher, AND who was black.

I vividly remember her describing what she does: a UX Researcher is someone who might not be building or designing a product, but helping advocate for what's being designed and built. She also described herself as a cross-cultural researcher, someone who studies behavior in different countries and identifies cultural patterns in beliefs and values. It was like a lightbulb went off in my head. That instantly connected with me because of my own personal experiences navigating my identity as a Nigerian growing up in America. So, the idea of advocating for people of different backgrounds in how a product is designed was fascinating.

That was also the first time I heard of UX Research as a position, and this moment led me to take HCI (Human Computer Interaction) courses during my senior year of undergrad then eventually pursuing a Master's degree.

Was that the moment that helped you pivot towards a different career path, or did you feel you could keep going where you were? I don't think I decided at that moment to scrap my dreams of being a software engineer. It was more of a mental note, "Wow, [user experience research] sounds exciting—maybe more exciting than the idea of coding." I eventually want to get into UX research, and I knew my degree would still get me there because, at the end of the day, it's all under Computer Science and Computing.

The HCI courses helped me see what it meant to do research, its connection to human factors, the design process, and all of that, which was a good primer. But realistically, I had a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science. When I graduated, I had to find a job and start as a software developer because I thought, "What else am I going to do?"

So, I got a job at a consulting firm as a software developer, and I did that for two years. At the end of the two-year mark, I said, "All right, it's time for me to figure out how to get back into UX."

What was your journey like transitioning careers? What were your first steps, mishaps, or lessons learned along the way? While I hadn’t always been resourceful [thinking back to high school], eventually, I became a person who was more committed to seeing myself achieve my dreams and goals. That comes with learning how to be resourceful, learning to learn, to connect with people, to advocate for yourself, and to find champions.

I wanted to understand the UX field fully, not just the surface. I read books, I went online and completed certificates. I also reached out to as many people as I could. Many of these were people I randomly reached out to, so that meant there were a lot of rejections or people who just didn’t respond. But there was this one woman who actually took the time to speak with me, and had several mentoring calls with me. She was a designer at Publicis Sapient, a design agency. I also reached out to the woman from Google that I met a few years back.

I learned I needed a portfolio to showcase that I understood the design and research process, and that I really needed to show project and team experience. So, I immediately started working on my UX portfolio.

At the time, I was still working as a consultant. I was making weekly trips between Atlanta and Connecticut for two years, which was a bit stressful but a fun experience when you’re young. One day, during one of these trips, I met an older woman who owned a special collections library with her husband. During the conversation, I offered to run a heuristic evaluation on her website and do some light research to help her better understand the needs of her target audience. And just like that, that became the first project in my portfolio.

So, little by little, I found projects to put on my portfolio and eventually got interviews for user experience research and design. While I could get through the door for the first interviews and screening conversations, I was missing that product sense/team experience and was not getting called back. But it was good practice.

I eventually realized I would need to leave my job to fully focus on this thing. This period was around 2015 and 2016, and UX was very much an established field, about 15 or so years after being an official industry.. Yes, roles were starting to get more definitions around them. Exactly, and so there was more investment in UX at different companies with many roles open then. But it still felt like it was more of a specialized field where "you need experience to get experience." So it was very difficult for me to break into the industry, with no formal training outside of small business projects and software development experience. I probably got at least five interviews though, which was impressive to me because I didn't even have a lot—just a rough portfolio and dreams.

What stands out is that it shows you were doing the work. Some people wonder, "Why can't I get a job?" It comes down to being focused on your goals. You took a chance in the conversation with the woman on the plane and all the people you’ve reached out to, which is important.

In mentoring early-career individuals, I often find that many aren't willing to go the extra mile. Doing unconventional things, like offering free design services helped me land my first clients as well. Unfortunately, getting ahead isn't always tied to only getting paid opportunities. You have to be willing to put in the work to break into the field.

Moving forward in your career timeline, I'd love to hear how you landed your first role as a User Experience Researcher at ALU Education. Going back to the examples of shooting my shot and reaching out to as many people as possible, being laser-focused is a very good way to describe my mindset at that time. The biggest reason I could transition successfully was because of the connections I ended up making.

It was summer of 2016 and one of my friends introduced me to a PhD student studying HCI. From his perspective, he felt I really needed the academic rigor and foundation in HCI and Human factors so I began to entertain the idea of grad school and decided to apply a few months later.

I learned about the African Leadership University from a friend. It is based in Mauritius. The fellowship program aimed to create a first-in-class university and grow and retain talent on the continent. I worked there as a program advisor, where we participated in leadership courses, advising students, and shaping the university programs.

One day I raised my hand and offered to help out with UX projects. I got this wonderful job as a part-time researcher for the learning management system they use. I did some usability testing and helped them improve their implementation. It was the first time I was working with a team of other designers and researching with the team, and it was great.

What also sets you apart in your journey is that you raised your hand for something that wasn't your "assigned role" but drove you toward the direction you wanted. Personally I think it was just God aligning things and me being laser-focused and knowing what I wanted.

I was at ALU for six months. I then came back to the States, went to grad school, did some internships, and eventually got jobs at Intel and Microsoft. Everything that happened was a product of both my faith as well as showing up and doing the hard work.

Now that you've transitioned back to Microsoft, were there any moments from ALU to now that stood out to you? One of my first roles was working on a large-scale project at Microsoft. I co-led an ethnographic study on employee experiences for the first time when I was here. That was a great role, but I was still fresh in my career and struggled a bit to navigate research at that scale outside of an academic setting. What I learned later after having worked in the consumer space at Uber then returning to Microsoft over the past eight years is that research is only a portion of our jobs as researchers. You have to spend a lot of time outside the research studies learning the business and building relationships and trust across the cross-functional team.

Having a great manager and champions that support you really matter, as well as having more senior researchers you can learn from.

Definitely—it's not always about being purely a great researcher, but similar to running studies and gathering insights, it's also about understanding context and having the support scaffolding from your team, manager, and others to allow you to continue moving forward in your career is crucial.

And how do mentorship, coaching, and the UXR courses you create come into your career? I started working on hopetalks.design two years ago on and off because I realized I would hear the same questions from people time and time again, such as "How do I stand out in my career?" or "How do I get into UXR?' It's tough to answer because I don't think everyone needs to follow the same path.

But then I reflected on what I would tell my younger self as I entered the field. I channeled that and started writing and creating my own perspective of the research field. I thought deeply about characteristics and qualities that researchers should have, things that helped me, and how to build that support system.

I started by hosting free sessions, getting to know people who were early in their career and offering advice on how to decide whether a certain industry is even right for you and your goals. I wanted to show up for people in the ways I needed when I was new to the field and cold emailing others as well.

As I was doing these sessions, and navigating work, motherhood, , I had a lot of things going on in my life as well, and it started to take a toll. I needed to find balance and decided to begin charging for my time. If I was going to dedicate hours reviewing resumes, helping people tease out their core values and research strengths, I wanted to know both parties were fully committed.

So, while I still do free sessions if someone reaches out for them for some quick advice or to connect, I also offer more detailed sessions where I invest more time in co-creating career strategies with my clients and coaching them towards their next role. One message I try to convey is harnessing your superpower. What makes you unique and stand out?

Exactly—what's your differentiator? That's what really helped me. Regardless of how I got into the field, I don't think everyone will have the same career path, but the value that helped me was being laser-focused on what differentiated me, who I was, how I wanted to show up, and what unique soft and technical skills I had to offer. Balancing that kind of confidence with a desire to continue learning is powerful.

So, I share that through my platform, encourage people to harness that, and figure out what differentiates them. For example, I might meet someone who is currently working in clinical services and they are trying to come over to design and tech. I help them figure out, "What are your values? What brought you to clinical services? And why do you want to enter the design and tech field?" I get them to think deeply and reflect their values systems and connect them back to the hard and soft skills they are uniquely gifted with.

What I hear is connecting back to the roots of what you experienced in your upbringing and as you navigate your career: hearing what others might be saying but then figuring out your voice and perspective. And that's what you're doing with hopetalks.design to help people shape that personal narrative versus just telling them what to do.

Reflecting back, what advice would you give a younger version of yourself? I would tell my younger self to get out of my head, get out of silos, and connect with people early. Coming from academia where I spent 2 years going really deep on a thesis, I learned the hard way that it is important to bring people along with you.

You also need to build trust and credibility with others on your team and leaders in your organization. So, I'd tell myself to stop working in a silo so much and to “manage up” a bit more, being vulnerable where it makes sense and bringing people along as I work on a study, even if it doesn’t go well.

I'd also say lean into your voice. One thing I've learned in my career is that a lot of people don't always speak from knowledge or know what they are talking about, oftentimes the loudest in the room pushes the agenda. I wish I had leaned more into my instincts and not been afraid to ask certain questions in a meeting, not being afraid to speak my mind when it matters, and not let people discredit me or take credit for my work. I would tell my younger self to have the wisdom to know when to speak up for something I believe in or want to advocate for. That took me a while, especially in the corporate environment. And finally but most importantly document your impact and the different ways you've made an impact across various roles, that’s your brand.

Lastly, I would look at my career not as all the places I've worked with as "this is work I did at Microsoft" or "this is work I did with Intel," but as these are all skills that are still part of me. I look at my career as a whole package. I have the company I worked for and I have my brand. I'm my own person, and I have these skills that I've gained—interpersonal and technical—across several industries. That’s valuable. I also have my own perspective on the world based on my upbringing, how I view the world, and the experiences I've had, which are also valuable.

It is a good reminder because oftentimes, when we spend 40+ hours a week on something, that becomes a lot of our identity. How do you ensure you don't get absorbed into the big corporation but are still your whole self? Because wow, when you step out of it, it's still a part of you. It's not Severance—you're not split and are still the same person.

Give us a list of 3 things; you pick the topic.

Top reads

1. Measuring the user experience (For Researchers)

2. Don’t make me think (For Designers)

3. Do Artifacts Have Politics? (For All)

What is your favorite song of the moment or something you have on repeat?

I've been reconnecting back to Sade. She's an older Nigerian British singer, and she's amazing. I've been obsessed with listening to her music lately. Her albums Lovers Rock and Love Deluxe are great. I've had "I Couldn't Love You More" on repeat for a few weeks. That, and Smooth Operator, Sweetest Taboo, and Kiss of Life are just amazing.

Enjoyed the Conversation with Hope Idaewor? You can find her at www.hopetalks.design, where you can book a 1:1 mentoring session, explore her UXR courses, and sign up for her newsletter.

Hope is also passionate about giving back to Gem Fellowship.

Gem Fellowship is a fellowship program dedicated to the advancement of racial diversity in engineering degrees. A donation was made to Gem Fellowship as part of this Conversation.

You can support Gem Fellowship by donating directly.

Adapted from a live presentation to the Uber Delivery Design team in January 2025, I’ve spent over a decade designing and facilitating workshops, reviews, and brainstorming with teams ranging from peers to C-level executives.

By the way, I offer 1:1 design coaching for early- and mid- career designers and those navigating their next step. Sessions are practical and hands-on, with focus areas that include:

• Resume, case study, portfolio, and interview prep

• Leveling up craft and strategy through critiques

• Navigating startup and corporate environments as a woman of color

With over 6 years of coaching experience and a decade in the design industry, I provide grounded, practical guidance tailored to your specific goals.

Book a 1-on-1 Design Coaching Session

Intro

You don’t have to be an expert in every topic, but knowing how to guide discussions, elevate ideas, and create an engaging space makes a facilitator invaluable. A great facilitator enables others to shine.

This guide covers practical skills for leading brainstorming sessions, design critiques, team discussions, and more. While my experience is rooted in product design, these techniques apply to any role that requires collaboration.

The four pillars of confident facilitation

1. Preparation – Set yourself and your participants up for success

2. Setting the tone – Build energy and engagement from the start

3. Leading the workshop* – Keep discussions focused and dynamic

4. Guiding conversations to outcomes – Drive clarity and next steps

*"Workshop" and "session" will be used interchangeably throughout this guide, but the tips and tactics apply to events, design reviews, critiques, and more.

1. Preparation

The best workshops feel effortless, but behind the scenes, strong preparation makes that possible. Think of it like great design—when done well, it’s nearly invisible.

Start with a clear objective. What’s the outcome you want? Whether it’s generating roadmap ideas or introducing a new concept, structure the session around that goal. If participants know what success looks like, they can engage more effectively.

Set your participants up for success by providing context in advance. Participants can feel confident joining, learning, and collaborating if you help them know what’s expected of them. When possible, send agendas, pre-reads, and any required tools in advance. A simple reminder email can boost attendance and engagement.

Give participants clear roles if they need them. If you want someone to present, let them know ahead of time. If you need folks to volunteer to co-facilitate breakout sessions, give them a heads-up so they can prepare.

Equip participants with what they need. If you expect them to brainstorm, have pens and sticky notes ready. If a presentation is required, ensure slides are preloaded or cables are accessible. Minimizing friction keeps the session flowing.

Most of all, amongst all the tools one can prepare, selecting the right tools comes down to where you’re most confident and can be most efficient. Learning a new tool to run a workshop is already double the work you need—and potentially more work for your participants. So if you can, stick with familiar tools especially ones where your participants already have access and that you’ll reuse later.

For example, during planning cycles at Uber Eats, I’ve worked with teams and leveraged tools like Trello, Google Sheets, Mural, and more. While Trello and Mural were great for generating ideas, and included a built-in timer and voting functionality, our teams rarely used it daily. It meant getting every teammate onto a new platform. It turns out, that the most efficient was to brainstorm in Google Sheets which would then allow us to easily transfer once prioritized into our tracking documentation which already existed in Sheets. All in all, leverage tools for your long-term needs, where folks spend the most time, and you’re most confident in can help take the burden of choosing tools out of the way.

2. Setting the tone

A strong start fosters engagement. Simple actions—like playing music as people join or encouraging small talk—can make the physical or virtual room feel welcoming.

Icebreakers help establish energy and participation. Setting aside dedicated time to introduce a new group of people to one another is a helpful and intentional way to build familiarity before diving into topics. In virtual settings, encourage video participation—it boosts engagement. Leading by example (having your camera on) invites others to do the same.

A few icebreaker ideas include:

Read more

Meet Peter Nguyen, the New York and Austin-based founder of The Essential Man, where he helps men elevate their style and look really fucking good. Peter shares how his creative journey started with working towards an oil painting degree in San Francisco to eventually making a series of decisions that landed him at Parsons School of Design, where he studied under Tim Gunn. His career continued for over a decade in the fashion industry, including working with renowned designer Robert Geller, the current Head of Menswear at Rag & Bone. After launching a leather jacket line, he pivoted to create The Essential Man, blending his expertise in menswear design with a passion for helping men express themselves authentically. Peter shares how his diverse experiences shaped his approach to blending creativity with business strategy, the lessons he learned from trying, and the importance of connecting diverse inspirations to foster originality. Peter has built The Essential Man into a platform for inspiring transformation through small, actionable goals and a commitment to personal growth.

Interviewed in May 2024 | This conversation has been edited for clarity and brevity.

Please introduce yourself. My name is Peter Nguyen. I've been a private personal stylist for men for nine years. Before that, I was a menswear designer in New York for 11 years. I've lived in New York for about 20 years.

I originally moved [to New York] to attend Parsons [School of Design]. Tim Gunn was my mentor and the head of the department. I moved here right after the first season of Project Runway premiered. They filmed in our building on 40th Street near Times Square. It was crazy because they didn't know how big it was going to be.

Presently, I've been running a personal styling business for the last nine years. I was doing it solo up until last year. I have one employee, and it's just me and her. I primarily work with guys who are going through a big life transformation. Many of my clients have sold their company or gotten a big promotion. They may have lost a lot of weight. I have a couple of divorced clients who are looking to date again. There's always some catalyst for wanting to reach out to someone to help with their style because they're on a whole self-improvement journey or need something to kickstart it. Most of my clients are successful and have a lot of supplemental income. They have money to finally be able to work on themselves, which is pretty cool.

Let's go back to the beginning. Can you share how you started your creative journey? I originally studied fine art to be an oil painter. I went to the Academy of Art in San Francisco. I knew I wanted to do something in art because I didn't know anything else.

While I got good at oil painting, I switched to fashion later because I had a crush on a girl in the fashion department. laughing So I took a lot of fashion classes like fashion drawing and fashion theory and ended up really liking them.

My professor, Simon Ungless, who used to be on Alexander McQueen's original team, was the head of the department there, and he loved my drawings; he said, "You should think about switching over." That was the lightbulb moment when I thought, "This is really interesting now." [Simon Ungless] would spend his entire class showing us old runway photos and videos of McQueen on VHS. He would talk about all the collections. It was so fascinating to me because it was like another world.

Did he also have all the details of the behind-the-scenes? Yeah, it was really interesting because there's a famous collection from the mid-90s, '95. It was the Roadkill collection where McQueen made these beautiful garments, and they put screen printing paint on a wheel and ran over the clothes he was famous for. They pieced together dead-looking animals, and it was very controversial. Well, yes, because it makes you talk and create conversation. Yeah!

Growing up, my older sister studied fashion. My sister and mom would watch Fashion Files, and I grew up watching that, too. I saw it, but, like most people, I didn't understand it. I wondered why the dresses were so huge. Who is wearing this? Who is buying this? I didn't understand. Studying fashion gave me context, which was really fascinating. To connect the dots. I see the creativity. I can see how you can go beyond aesthetics, have a point of view, and do interesting things.

[While at Academy of Art San Francisco,] I applied to Central St. Martins in London and Parsons in New York. Central St. Martins because Ungless went there, and he said I should if I could travel. But I also applied to Parsons because it’s where Marc Jacobs went. He was really big at the time for his Louis Vuitton collection with Takashi Murakami. I got into both, but my mom said, "You're not going to England." So, as a compromise, I went to New York.

I'm surprised she was so accepting! Well, here's the thing. I have three older siblings: two older brothers and one older sister. My older sister dropped out of college, and my two brothers didn't go. So, I was the only one to go to college. They were just happy that I was doing something. All the money they saved up for college went to me, so I had no student loans, which is pretty amazing. That allowed me to leave art school three years in, even though I was so close to graduating from oil painting. When I went to Parsons, I ended up leaving my senior year.

Can you discuss the transition from the Bay Area to New York? I initially looked on Craigslist and found an apartment in the Upper West Side from this guy who had just graduated from Dartmouth and was starting a job and needed a roommate. So I got a ticket and moved to New York with a backpack, even though I had never visited before. I went straight from the airport to the apartment. I didn't even know how the trains worked.

I was 22, and it was the summer of '05. I would start school in the Fall. Before I started classes, I got a job as a styling assistant from a friend. I knew about it while interning at a magazine in San Francisco, where I did graphic design and illustration. They had worked as a stylist in New York before, so I became her assistant, which was my first experience. It's very cool how you were able to bridge the gap and leverage your network to figure out your footing in the city. It was a terrible job! As they usually are! In retrospect, it gave me insight into editorial styling that I don't think I would have ever gotten because I had gone to school for design to make stuff, so I would not have pursued or looked into styling after that.

Taking a step back, did you decide you needed a job lined up before starting school? Well, it's just one of those things where I shared, "Hey, I'm moving to New York." And then someone tells you, "so and so lives in New York." You say that casually! Only a few people find jobs along the way to something else through their network. Well, everyone knows that networking is important. But they think of it as saying, "I need a network with a stranger to get me somewhere." But people that you know probably know people. And people overlook that.

…everyone knows that networking is important. But they think of it as saying, "I need a network with a stranger to get me somewhere." But people that you know probably know people. And people overlook that.

I feel it's the same way: You have friends who probably have a huge network you're not tapping into because you're like, "I can always maybe reach out to him," rather than going to a networking event where you're there for a single purpose. It's about being open to possibilities and asking for help.

So, how did the Parson's program go? It was crazy because that was the summer after the first season of Project Runway premiered. There were around 11 or 13 sections when we entered the program. Each section would have 15 students at the most. The following year, they got so many applicants. By my junior year, there were 23 sections with 30 students each. What timing for you to join. When I think about the timing of my life, it's crazy. But you were prepared. The opportunity came, and it happened. A lot of people think it's luck. I think it's all about preparation. If you prepare yourself, you're more open to the opportunity.

A lot of my clients will ask me, "When will I ever need a suit?" Or "When will I ever need a tuxedo? I have no place to go." But if you get one, you find places to go in your nice clothes. That's the same idea where things happen if you prepare.

Were there any people or experiences during the program that helped you get excited? Oh my god, so many! The teachers at that school are so good. It's trendy to say that college isn't needed, but unless you're a hardcore self-learner, it's better than nothing. It's better than flailing because you can access other people's decades of experience, knowledge, and insights. That's something you cannot YouTube your way into.

We had a class where you learn to develop a collection. Say I want you to design a children's line for Fall/Winter—open inspiration. My professor always stressed that we need at least two sources of inspiration because if I were doing a women's collection inspired by the 20s, it would look so much like the 20s. After all, I only have one point of reference. However, originality starts coming in when I start combining multiple sources. So now, I will design a women's collection based on hip-hop from the 1920s and 1980s in New York. It will automatically be more interesting. Then I'm going to throw in some of my Vietnamese upbringing—then it's completely original. And it's also personal. Yeah! So you can apply this to everything. There are a lot of people who are so worried about being original when they're doing anything. They don't realize that once you learn the basics and add something you're interested in, it automatically becomes something original.

There are a lot of people who are so worried about being original when they're doing anything. They don't realize that once you learn the basics and add something you're interested in, it automatically becomes something original.

After deciding to leave fashion design, I thought about how I wanted to become a stylist and put myself out there. How do I do it in a way that is true to me but also helps me stand out a little bit: how do I be original? I thought about what if I was a menswear influencer without photos of myself. That was the rule. Now, I have to teach, and so I thought about going to take the things that all the influencers do, which is social media, and then combine it with the things I used to love watching when I was growing up, like Bill Nye, the Science Guy type of edutainment.

Combining these two things, what if Bill Nye was a menswear influencer? What would that look like? It's the idea of combining two things and creating something new. Because if I came in and played the influencer game, I would look like everyone else. So that was a big lesson from the program that I still use all the time.

Putting this approach into context for myself, as a product designer, often when designing, people ask, "Well, what are our competitors doing?" That feels boring to me. We're not leveraging your team's skills and talent and are only looking to one data point as inspiration.

Speaking of competitors, I don't follow any other fashion influencers. Because you could get influenced? Yes, even unintentionally, too. I follow travel bloggers and food reviewers. It also helps me combine inspiration. Okay, so what if I did this for fashion?

I'm starting a YouTube channel, and the prompt I wrote for myself when I decided to start was: what if Sofia Coppola made a YouTube channel? What would that look like? I'm doing a bit of Wong Kar Wai and Sofia Coppola film grain, and it's a little artsy. It's a little pretentious, but that's what I'm into.

Moving forward in the timeline, what happened after the program? So, I didn't graduate. I gotta backtrack a little bit because when I was still in San Francisco, I was working for that magazine. I was reading a lot of fashion articles and collections. That was my gateway or exposure to brands that weren't common for a 21-year-old dude who doesn't follow fashion. I knew Gucci, Louis Vuitton, and other name brands. But then I started discovering designers like Helmut Lang and Cloak, which are gothic and cool and look like vampires. It looked like nothing I'd ever seen.

Specifically, Cloak was started by two people from Marc Jacobs: Alexandre Plokhov and Robert Geller. It's super cool, and to me, it was like, "Oh shit! I didn't know fashion could be this way."

Fast-forward to New York. I'm in my senior year, and I saw in Women's Wear Daily that Robert Geller is starting his own line for men. I googled and emailed him, asking, "Hey, do you have any internships?" And he said, "Yeah. Come by. My office is on Bleeker and Broadway in NoHo." My first apartment was at Bleeker and Lafayette, right across the street.

So I asked, "Can I come over for lunch now?" And he responded yes. So, I walked over there, and we started bonding after I saw tickets to The Cure were pinned behind him. I grew up listening to a lot of 80s music. And so, he asked me, "When can you start?" I was like, "I'm going to start next week."

School was starting again in a month, but I decided to quit school. I got the money back from paying tuition and lived off that for a bit. That's when I quit school because I knew people spend a lot of money on their senior thesis where you'd build a collection and compete to be in the senior show.

The senior show at Parsons was legendary because Barneys and all these designer buyers and magazines would show up. In 2002, Barney's bought Proenza Schuler from their senior collection. So, the senior collection is a huge deal for a lot of people, and they would spend ten or twenty thousand dollars at that time, and now, I'm sure, hundreds of thousands of dollars on collections.

Wow, so you forgo the senior thesis to work with Robert Geller? Also, at that time, Parsons didn't have a mentor program. You do general design, and then in senior year, you would specialize. The curriculum would change every semester because they were getting so many new students and trying to shake up the whole system.

They kept trying different things, and many students who came in then were frustrated because Parsons didn't know what they were doing. I was a little annoyed with that, too. A class I loved last semester isn't around anymore because they decided to scrap it. They would make us take a history class, but it might have been more helpful to take a business or sewing class instead. All of this helped me decide to leave.

How did the internship go? I worked with [Robert Geller] for five, almost six years, and it was amazing. It was life-changing. It was a different and very rare setup. Robert Geller was a small designer who a Japanese company funded. So, he was independent of the American fashion system, which is a different beast. We could do things that most brands wouldn't be able to do. It was five or six people, including a couple of patternmakers, a couple of stylists from Japan, and then Robert, me, and the other intern, Joey.

What does it mean to be independent of the American fashion industry? Fashion, especially Menswear at the time, wasn't very interesting in America. There's a joke in fashion design that, given enough time, you end up working at Ralph Lauren, J. Crew, or Banana Republic. I've had friends who worked at all those companies. And at that level, if you go to Ralph Lauren, you'll specialize in one thing. You may do men's denim, and that's all you do. Then you have someone who specializes in knits for women. Versus Robert, Joey, and I would design everything together. We would sit down and hand draw everything while everyone was using Illustrator.

It was an amazing experience because it's like a small startup. You get to experience all the parts, as I helped on the runway shows. I would call the runway models out. I'm also painting the stage! We're doing a lot of hands-on stuff and realizing that a lot of people who have been in the industry now don't get to experience it.

That's wild. Reflecting on my experience as well, many people will never get to experience what I've experienced. My first job here in New York was at a small 30-something-person startup where I was the second designer and did a bit of everything. An early career colleague recently told me, "You sound like a product manager." My response was that it was because I was trained by product managers, and up until I joined a large company, at every startup, I was reporting to either the CEO or product leader. The big learning was that designers are more effective when they can understand the business to influence the strategy and vision and not just create visuals. Some days, I dream of being an intern again so I can go back to basics, learn from that lens, and try everything again.

It's the same thing in fashion! If you talk to any fashion person now who grew up in the Tumblr era of Menswear, most of these folks are Gen X. Robert Geller was in his thirties when he left his corporate job to start his own thing. That's why it was such an exciting time for these starting brands, like Robert Geller, Thom Browne, etc. It was exciting for Menswear because American fashion didn't have much except for hip-hop in the late '90s.

What happened after this internship? I had nowhere else to go because we were a small company and team. I can't replace Robert Geller, and so I'm stuck. He's also a small company, so he couldn't afford to bring us all in, so many of us had side jobs. For example, me and my other colleague started an online shop. I would freelance and specialize in leather jackets because I learned so much from Robert and would apply that to other places. I did a lot of ghost designing and freelancing.

Ghost designing is similar to ghostwriting. A celebrity launches a brand, but most of the time, they won't actually be designing. Instead, they hire a team and take the credit—which is fine. I did a lot of that. But it got to a point where I thought maybe I wanted to start my own thing.

I had a good amount of savings, so I started a leather jacket company. I didn't know what I was doing. It's really expensive to make things in New York and pay a living wage to people while using high-quality materials. You're sourcing everything and paying for shipping, inventory, a warehouse, and raw materials.

I didn't have enough capital to buy leather in bulk, so I'm paying near retail price, which is insane. It got so expensive that I burned through my savings in two collections. In retrospect, learning what I know now and talking to people with brands, they're like, "Yes, of course, you need at least a couple million." Many people who start their brands first work in corporate in their 20s and 30s and then in their 40s and 50s start their lines because it's impossible to get funding. So, I blew through my savings and didn't know what I wanted to do next.

Was that a year or two with the two collections? Yes, I had my line for about a year and a half. I sold a few, but not enough to pay rent, and I was living off my savings and credit cards and borrowing money from my wife, who was my girlfriend at the time. She was super supportive and awesome, but it was a really stressful time for sure.

It sounded like you had a proof of concept, and then the concept went to launch, but you needed more to continue pushing. Yeah. I've always been good at selling, but I didn't know enough about business to think about cash flow, etc.

So, how does The Essential Man come in? The Essential Man used to be my Tumblr blog. It was where I would write and show behind the scenes of fashion in New York, my life, and just things I was into.

I had also been following this personal finance guy named Ramit Sethi for a few years. Ramit had a course called "Zero to Launch," which is about creating a business using your knowledge or skills. I took that course and followed it to a T, and the whole point was that you find something good that you can monetize and how to test and validate a business idea around that.

So, I brainstormed a business idea around what I could do, like teaching people how to be designers, or styling, and how to shop. I did some research and saw people advertise. I talked to my friends who happened to be in tech, and one guy hired me for a conference. That's how it snowballed from there.

Some people feel that they need to show credibility when they start something. Did you feel the same way? My credibility came from being in fashion and dressing cool—that and having gone to Parsons. I have been a menswear designer for over a decade and can help you pick an outfit.

With credibility, you already have the confidence to do it. Was there anything that you learned along the way that helped you push it even further? Yes, so I always thought the worst-case scenario was that I could get a corporate job. Or that I would work at Starbucks. I knew that rock bottom wasn't possible and that there were other careers I could have until I figured it out.

You say it so simply! laughing With many of the conversations I have with my friends, we're always so fearful about what happens next. Some of us, especially in corporate jobs, end up in golden handcuffs even if we know we can leave and try something new. But the risk and time it takes to go into the next phase of our lives also takes a lot. But to you, you're just like, "Oh, cool!" I'll tell you why. My parents have always started businesses when I was young. I learned from them that you can figure it out. It's sometimes easy to forget that my parents escaped a war. My mom's first job was as a hotel maid, then worked at Burger King and figured it out.

We often forget that it's not the end of the world. Rock bottom is almost like a joke because did you die? Because no, you didn't die. I understand the fear of everything going to shit, but if you really sat down and listed out that if this happens, I can do this, and you can keep going forever until you get to the point where there's nothing left. The other part is reminding ourselves that we're highly capable and that it takes more effort to fail.

Rock bottom is almost like a joke because did you die? Because no, you didn't die. I understand the fear of everything going to shit, but if you really sat down and listed out that if this happens, I can do this, and you can keep going forever until you get to the point where there's nothing left.

To the point of how things take a long time: The advantage of being older is that you understand how long things take, so you take your time. For example, the YouTube channel I'm starting: I don't want it to begin to blow up, but I know that in two or three years, it will be killer. Because when you're young, you haven't lived enough. And you need to live longer to know that things will eventually work, and they can work out. For example, you go through a few breakups, get fired a few times, move a few apartments, and things will be fine five or six years later because that's what experience is. You have the context, and that's why failing when you're younger is scarier than when you're older. Yes, you have no clue yet! It took me nine years to get to where I am, and I can do it in another nine years.

Because when you're young, you haven't lived enough. And you need to live longer to know that things will eventually work, and they can work out.

I recently guest lectured with a friend at my alma mater to talk to design students about our careers journeys. My friend, Triệu Thanh Nguyệt, shared that we need more data points to make better conclusions or arguments for the next thing. That and you don't need to have all the answers to make a firm decision. Additionally, earlier in our lives, we hear a lot from everyone else around us about how they've made choices, what they wanted to do, or how they got to where they are. We don't realize that it's an accumulation of many choices, and nothing was ever that final. If things are meant to be, I also believe you'll find your back to it. You're more capable than you think.

Were there more learnings you experienced when you started your styling journey? Whenever I start something new, I set goals. My first goal with the styling business was to book three clients because one is a favor, two is lucky, and three is a pattern. I do that with anything when I start. For example, I will focus on three YouTube shorts, and if the first or second one gets some views, then it's okay. But if I do three or four more videos and no one is watching, maybe something's off here.

So far, I've posted a few videos, and they've been killing it. So, it's already given me the confidence to repeat. Whenever I try to test something new, for example, I'll go to three pottery classes and see how I like it. It's a small investment, and it's still low, and it's enough for you to get the data points that you need.

Out of everything you've done so far, why is any of this important to you? Every phase is something new. Initially, it's been about "what's interesting to me?" And then, as I get older, it's more, "How can I help more people?" or "How can I affect certain things?"

Fashion is interesting because it's a creative and artistic business that is still commercial and functional. If I weren't in this industry, I would probably be in food, interior design, or something artistic, creative, and functional. That's what attracts me to styling "regular guys" rather than editorial or celebrities. I have to think of them in the context of their lives, interests, and more.

It's a creative challenge, and I get the artistic aspect of where I get to dictate what that looks like. I always tell my clients that they are characters in a movie, and it's my job to figure out the costumes for their characters. I'll ask them, "What's on your Spotify playlist? What kind of movies are you watching? Where are you guys going if you and your wife go out?"

That's fun for me, but helping people is my whole thing. I always wanted to be the [Anthony] Bourdain for men's fashion where he's showing you all this cool shit, but also he's showing you that food is culture the same way clothing is culture. Sometimes, we think it's frivolous or purely functional, but it's integral to who we are and our expression. It is essential to show guys that fashion is fun and that you don't have to be super nerdy to be in it. But at least you can appreciate things about it and be interested and be a more interesting person through it.

Are there any misconceptions about the work you do, the industry you're in, or yourself? A lot of people think fashion people are snobby. Whenever I'm at a party, and someone finds out I'm a personal stylist, they'll ask me, "I don't want you to judge me or what I'm wearing." They're judging themselves. I get it! But I always joke to them that, "I only judge people who pay me."

First of all, that's completely true. Don't do anything for free that you can get paid for. Fashion gets this snobby, pretentious rap, and it is in some aspects. However, there is a good kind of snobby that I find fun. People are scared to investigate the fashion world or be interested in fashion because they believe everyone's snobby, but most people aren't.

And the good people are good snobby. A bad snob makes you feel bad about your choices—like what you would think a fashion person is like in a movie. Bad snobby is when someone says, "Ew, you're wearing that?" or "Ew, you're eating that?"

I know what you mean by good snobby. It's the people who are passionate about how they dress, what they put on their bodies, and how things are made. It's more about the care they have versus a projection of themselves cast as judgment to others. They care about the thing or topic itself. I think of myself as the older brother who goes to school in Europe, and I'm back in town for a week. I'm like, "mom and dad are out, I'm going to show you some cool shit."

With my clients, whenever I recommend something to someone, I learn early on instead of saying, "Don't wear those; those are ugly." I would say, "I think you're the type who would wear Loewe. You're a Loewe girl." Now, suddenly, you're like, "What does that mean? He sees me as something, and I can be a little different. I should investigate this."

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So that's a good kind of snobby where if I was your brother and I came home from college, and I say, I'm going to show you a cool drink I had in Paris and say, "It's the craziest shit!" That's what [Anthony] Bourdain does. He'll say, "Let's go to Vietnam," and show you the little stools, the little carts, and a place that makes the best bowl of pho ever. Now you want to go. And that's the fun snobby that is missing a lot of the time. It's also a way of creating an inviting atmosphere, encouraging someone to be part of the experience rather than casting judgment or bullying. Sometimes, snobbiness can come across as making something exclusive and incomprehensible.

Yes, to be fair, fashion that gets presented online or, in general, is that bad snobby because that's what people think. It's almost cliche, but if you are talking to anyone like Cathy Horyn, Anna Wintour, or really respected fashion writers or editors, people respect them because they are not the bad snobby. They're the fun snobby.

A perfect example of a fun snob is Rajiv Surendra. Rajiv played Kevin in Mean Girls. He quit Hollywood to become a calligrapher and does all the signs in restaurants in New York. He also has an amazing YouTube channel where he'll show you how to wash your linens and wrap a gift. He's like the male Martha Stewart; all the videos are in a beautiful film grain. He has the most fascinating life, and it's so aspirational and snobby, like he goes to Europe to find tweed to make a jacket! But that's the thing that is missing in most spaces.

Do you have any advice for a younger Peter? I don't have any advice because I love where I've gotten and feel if I had advice for my younger self, it would change my trajectory, which sounds like a cop-out answer!

But it may be better not to work so hard. I'm at a point where I've worked with many ultra-successful people. Right now, I have a client worth nine figures, which is mind-blowing. I've seen the ultra-wealthy in many ways that most people don't get access to, and nothing's changed. Just a little more zeros at the end! They have bigger places, but I've also seen shitty marriages. I've seen people stressed out and constantly working while shopping, and ultimately, people are all the same.

My wife and I talk about our finances a lot, our goals, and stuff we want to save for. I've sat and reflected that we lived a good life. New York for 20 years is insane. We've had multiple apartments; we lived in a new building with a doorman. I can buy whatever I want relatively. I take Uber a lot because of work.

I'm grateful for where I am, but I don't know if I need to work too hard. I have no aspirations of being a billionaire or running a multi-million dollar company. At the same time, money is an important aspect of our society. But I've gotten calmer as I've gotten older, and I wish my younger self could feel this way. I'm just very chill.

Because when you're young, you're told you gotta work hard, gotta hustle, and all that stuff. You're told what other people's aspirations are because you have yet to form your own. You wouldn't believe how many of my clients I've talked to wish they had smaller companies, who wish they had more time, who complain about back pain, or who complain about money. It's all the same shit.

A lot of folks who are anti-hustle culture have experienced hustling very hard. As you get older, and the more you ask for help and open yourself up to other things, you also welcome a lot more of other people's aspirations and thoughts. The hardest part for an individual is to decide at what point "this is actually my path."

Give us a list of 3 things; you pick the topic.

1. Herman Miller Aeron chair. It's so worth it.

2. Get good cashmere is always nice!

3. Get stationery from Terrapin Stationers. I believe in writing thank you notes because I think no one does it anymore, so you stand out easily.

Here's a little trick I'll teach you. To get VIP treatment at clothing stores but basically anywhere: whenever I go to a new store, and I work with a client or meet the person, afterward, I always come back and give the staff a thank you note and some Levain cookies or something similar so that they'll always remember me. It's so easy, and it'll only cost a couple of dollars. It's all about building relationships and getting the habit of doing things to do them. Yes, you can send an email, but something about writing a note and giving it to someone is so nice.

What is your favorite song of the moment or something you currently have on repeat?

Whenever I'm in New York, I listen to Frank Ocean, specifically Channel Orange or Pink and White. It came out at a time when I remember always just listening to it while I was walking around. I also listen to a lot of hip hop, jazzy lo-fi, and J Dilla. which all feel very New York to me.

Enjoyed the Conversation with Peter Nguyen?

You can find him at www.theessentialman.com, and @theessentialman on Instagram, Tiktok, and Youtube. Peter also offers styling in-person and virtually with more information at https://www.theessentialman.com/styling-services.

Peter is also passionate about giving back to The Trevor Project.

The Trevor Project is an American nonprofit organization focused on suicide prevention efforts among lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and questioning youth; they offer a toll-free telephone number where confidential assistance is provided by trained counselors. A donation was made to The Trevor Project as part of this Conversation.

You can support The Trevor Project by donating directly.

Meet , co-founder of Versive, an AI-powered user research platform that helps companies conduct and analyze research faster. Eric started his career in finance, transitioned to design, tried out product management, and eventually founded his own company. He shares with us how he approached exploring new careers, building new skills, and what he learned along the way in each role through the lens of solving creative problems for people by building for them and their needs. 

Interviewed on March 2024 |  This conversation has been edited for clarity and brevity.

Tell us a little about yourself—who you are and what you want the audience to know. I'm Eric, co-founder of Versive. We're a user research tool that uses AI to help people conduct and analyze research faster.

As far as careers go, I've gone through a lot of different twists and turns. I started working in investment banking and then pivoted into becoming a designer, with some stints as a product manager in between. Then, ultimately started Versive, which also had its twists and turns.

I grew up in the Chicago suburbs. I've been in New York for over ten years and live in Brooklyn with my wife, Emily, and my cat, Mochi.

Let's start at the beginning of those twists and turns. Could you share how you started in finance and where design came from? In high school, I did all the school stuff I was “supposed to” but was also interested in art and painting, which I always thought of as a hobby. But I really enjoyed it; it was a small part of my identity.  When I went to college at the University of Chicago, there was almost no trace of any design program [at the time]. I met some friends who were also interested in art and design. We knew people starting nonprofits, student organizations, and companies, and no one knew anything about design. People needed to create logos, marketing materials, and websites. There was a problem people needed to solve, which seemed interesting, so I decided to try to solve it for people.

But then, I also spent a lot of time trying to get good grades in my econ classes and joining business-related clubs. In junior year, everyone started recruiting for investment banking and consulting jobs. I realized this is the game everyone plays, so I decided to play as well and see if I could get a good job at the top firm. I did it because I didn't know what else to do, and it seemed like a safe path. If I were to go back in time, I wouldn't have done that [route].

Why not? It was less, "I'm super passionate about this," but more, "This is a thing that is good for me, and if I do it, I'll have a good career, and people will be happy with me." While it was interesting, I liked solving more creative problems but didn't know I could make a career out of it.

What happened as you went from designing for fun to pursuing a career in finance? What did you end up doing, and what were some of your learnings? My ultimate goal was to get a job in investment banking. I did an internship that turned into a full-time offer with JP Morgan in their Tech, Media & Telecom investment banking group in New York.

Typically, you're supposed to work in banking for two to three years. Then, most people will go into a private equity or corporate finance job at a big company. I ended up staying for only a year and a half—up to my first bonus.

Overall, it was a good experience. I made some good friends because you're working in your little cubicle with other people who just graduated from college. You're there for 80-100 hours a week, and you see these people more than anyone else.

I also learned how pointless a job can feel and how many hours you can still put into it. Maybe I also improved my work ethic. After having [worked in investment banking], every job after seems much more chill, especially after moving to tech.

What factors did you consider to help you decide to move out of finance? Investment banking is a job that provides services to other businesses. Most of the job involves pitching and selling to companies to "Use us to do your M&A or raise money." You're trying to sell the customer what they want to hear and help them facilitate the transaction. It adds some value, but that wasn't what I wanted to do. I wanted to find a job where I was actually building something for people and solving their problems.

So I didn't like the job I had, but I also didn’t like the job I would have next. In investment banking, you start recruiting for your next job after six or seven months when you barely know your current job.  If you get an offer, you basically work in banking for another year and a half before starting the next job. I did exactly that and got a job at a pretty good private equity firm. I went to their welcome event, and everyone was making jokes about how they hated the job. And I'm like, "I don't know if I want to do this either."

Most importantly, I was in a long-distance relationship with my girlfriend, now my wife, who was still in Chicago. I wanted to be in person with her. I had this job that I didn't really care about, and I wondered if there was a way I could quit my job and move to Chicago.

Out of nowhere, an opportunity fell in my lap. I had a friend who ran the product and analytics team at Sears, the big retail company, and he was hiring for a role on their strategy team in Chicago. I interviewed with them and decided to take the position, quit my job, and move to Chicago. It was all very quick and impulsive, but it was also a very clear-cut decision.

What happened next? Working at Sears was fun, chaotic, challenging, and frustrating all at once. It also led me to discover that I wanted to become a product designer.

In my new role, I started as an internal consultant working with different teams to use data and new products to grow our loyalty programs and encourage customers to spend more money with Sears. My boss was a 20-something Senior Vice President (SVP) who reported directly to the CEO, a hedge fund manager who bought Sears and merged it with Kmart. It was a weird situation because I knew nothing, and I was supposed to tell all these people who had been working at Sears for 20-30 years what to do, give them advice, and work with them on projects.

Our CEO wanted to do a lot of product experimentation with social commerce and our loyalty programs. He acquired a company in Israel that was trying to build a social shopping website. I flew to Tel Aviv every month to work with them and got my first exposure to the world of product managers, designers, and engineers. Eventually, my boss let me build my own team focused on launching 0 to 1 products for our loyalty program. Looking back now, I was not very good at my job, but I learned a ton.

I especially loved working with designers.  Product design was the perfect combination of my creative and logical sides. I loved that it combined visual design, problem-solving, and business strategy. This was the moment I realized, "I want to be a designer."

How did you make the move into design? I wanted to get a design job outside of Sears at a more tech-centric company. I started applying to jobs but heard back from almost none of them. When you don't have real experience and are trying to get your first job, it's really hard to get your foot in the door.

I started reading design newsletters and listening to podcasts to try to better understand the industry. I also figured I would need to build a portfolio of work, so I tried two things.

First, I started making design a bigger part of my job since our team was short on designers. I started not only writing product requirements but also creating mockups—first building wireframes in PowerPoint before eventually using Sketch to design full high-fidelity flows.

Second, I started working on a creative project with my friend, Alex. When we traveled for work and fun, we were inspired by the cool local fabrics we saw at markets around the world. So, we started a fashion brand where we made men’s button-down shirts out of interesting fabrics that we found in Japan. While it never became a real business, we sold tens of thousands of dollars of shirts, and I designed and built a website that made it into my portfolio. 

With a scrappy portfolio of real projects, I applied to many more jobs and got a few interviews, leading to two or three final rounds. I ultimately landed a job at a small startup called Capture, building products to help companies like CNN and Buzzfeed search for real-time social content on platforms like Instagram and Twitter. The team liked my work and took a chance on me, and I’m still grateful for the opportunity.

I became the only designer in a 5-10-person company, working closely with the CEO and engineers in a small office in Soho—it was a great experience. We didn't follow the “proper” design processes or do a lot of research, but we shipped a ton of work. I only worked there for 6-7 months before we were acquired, but during that time, we redesigned the entire app and designed a brand-new product, which was great for learning.

So what happened after Capture? When we were acquired, it wasn’t a meaningful outcome for me as an employee, and I didn't want to join the acquirer, so I started looking to join a better-funded startup where I felt like I could grow with the company. After interviewing at a few companies, I landed at Bread, a small startup that helped retailers offer pay-over-time plans to their customers. I joined as the first designer when the company was less than 20 people, and it grew to around 200 while I was there.

It was really cool to see a startup grow and become a real business. I grew a lot as a designer there, shipping lots of new features, leading a rebrand, helping to hire product managers and designers, and setting up our first research processes. 

Bread was also a great training ground for my current role as a founder. The cool thing about being at an early-stage startup is that you get to see everything. For example, you're talking directly with salespeople, sitting right next to your engineers, and overhearing the customer support calls. You're also not bound by your job description. I set up our product analytics, wrote the front-end code for our dashboard redesign, and helped put together our fundraising decks. My experience at Bread was a preview of what I'm doing now as a founder. It’s not the same as being responsible for everything, but it was probably one of the best ways to learn.

Oh, and I also got to work with some fantastic people, including my current co-founder, David, who was one of the first engineers.

My experience at Bread was a preview of what I'm doing now as a founder. It’s not the same as being responsible for everything, but it was probably one of the best ways to learn.

Since college, you've always had something tangentially related going on in your path. During this stage of focusing on your design career, did you also focus on something else? No, I don't think so. This was a period where I was very satisfied. I liked my job and was still being challenged. I also found fulfillment in my personal life. I got married to my wife Emily when I was at Bread. 

So you transitioned from a small company to a large one and transitioned out of that after. What spurred that decision? I really enjoyed working for a startup, but I still wanted to work at a top company, one that was known for design. At Capture and Bread, I was good at my job but part of me always wondered if I was a good designer. Maybe it was because I was self-taught and never had a design education, but I wanted to work with other designers and get some validation so I would be able to say, "I know what I'm doing" 

After Bread, I was lucky enough to get a job at Uber. Uber Eats was actually the top company I wanted to work at. I remember reading a blog post about how the team did research around the world, and I thought, "Oh, that's so cool.” It's like you're designing not only an app but also the real-world interactions.

My number one takeaway at Uber was that it’s a lot of fun to work in a team with other designers who all understand each other. I made some good friends and worked with some talented people. The second was that the work itself wasn’t that different from my time at Bread, but you end up spending more time on things other than design. There’s a bigger focus on process and building consensus, but I felt like I could get good at it if I put in the time. Still, it was a little frustrating to be moving so slowly and needing to spend so much time advocating for projects and being okay with your team’s ideas not always being implemented. I definitely worked on some projects that didn’t ship until a year or two after I left the company.

There are pros and cons to working at a big company, but it was also really cool to work on something at scale and ship experiences to hundreds of thousands or millions of people and see whether they work.

What drew you back to a smaller startup after your time at a big company?  The first year at Uber was great. The company was growing, and the world was very happy in 2019. We got to do a lot of traveling for some really interesting research projects.

But then Covid hit and everyone started working from home and the company went through layoffs. Luckily, I wasn’t affected, but it made me reevaluate what I wanted in my job. I missed the autonomy and ownership I had at Bread and Capture and I wanted fewer Zoom meetings and more doing.

I wanted to start my own company, but I wasn’t sure if I was ready to do it right away. I didn’t have a compelling idea, and there wasn't someone I wanted to work with. So, I decided to find a very early-stage startup to see if I could get paid to help someone else build a product from scratch.

I got in touch with Kat and Lalit, the founders of Vareto. They were trying to build a modern FP&A (financial planning and analysis) platform. Many designers might say, "That's not a very exciting problem." But, coming from the finance world, this felt like a great fit for me. It's probably not a problem I would solve on my own, but it's an interesting problem that I was uniquely able to work on.

How did Vareto compare to your other startup experiences?  So, I joined Vareto as a designer right after they raised a seed round on an idea with no product built yet. There were about five of us, and it was really fun to design the brand, set up the design system, and design all of our initial products from scratch. I joined almost every customer and sales call. It felt much earlier stage than Bread and with some experience under my belt, I felt like I could make decisions with more confidence. Because there were no PMs, I ended up basically being the PM. I talked to customers, designed the solution, and then ran the planning meetings with engineers.

I had stepped in and out of the PM role at Bread, but this time I wanted to give it my focus. Kat and Lalit were very supportive and let me hire a designer so I could transition into leading product. 

What was it like? As designers, we often get frustrated with PMs, they control the roadmap and make all the important decisions, and they’re always telling us what to do. After being a PM myself, I definitely developed more empathy. It's really hard to be a PM. It's so much work, and with the power comes a lot of responsibility. You have to be on top of all the engineers' work to make sure they are unblocked and shipping bug-free features. You have to know what customers and prospects are saying, turn that into a roadmap,  and make sure your designers and engineers have the right amount of context to know how to move forward.

It was especially challenging at a startup working on a niche problem where everything is undefined, and none of the engineers or designers has really “lived” the role of the customer. It also sparked this thinking that if I'm doing this really hard job where I have to be responsible for a little bit of everything...maybe it's time for me to do that for my own company. It also made me realize that if I ever went back to working for someone, I would probably want to be a designer. That was the sweet spot for me after going through all of these different iterations.

So, from Vareto, how did you and David get started? David and I have wanted to start a company together since we were at Bread. When I was at Vareto, and he was at Google, we started talking about ideas we wanted to pursue. The one we were most excited about was building a more interactive way for people to learn how to code and for instructors to build courses.

I was open with my boss, Kat, that I wanted to work on my own startup. I probably wouldn’t have done this at any other company, so huge credit to her for building a culture where I felt I could be completely honest. I told her that I wanted to start a company and go full-time on it in a few months. She was incredibly supportive throughout the transition period and even ended up investing in us. 

And so, we had this multi-month period where David and I were both working at our jobs and slowly working on a prototype on the side. 

The real forcing function was when we realized that Y Combinator had a deadline for their next batch in a week and we decided to apply. A week! I remember it being very short! Yeah, this was where I was like, "Okay, this week I'm winding down from my job, and there's no urgency on the startup yet. I'm going to visit a bunch of museums." But then that all changed. When we got in, it became real. We needed to move quickly on this. And we need to make a lot of progress because there were all of these deadlines. The application, the interview, and then YC started in January with a demo day and fundraising in March.

What were some learnings or interesting moments that brought you to where you are today? I can't believe it's been basically a year! It feels like it's been three or four years.

The biggest learning is that it's really hard to build a company from nothing, especially getting people to pay to use what you're building. We went into YC to build this marketplace for programming courses and built a pretty powerful product. We're pretty good at designing and building, but the hard part for us is selling and getting people to use [the product]. We're not naturally self-promoting or super extroverted people.

One of the most valuable things about YC is that you’re building alongside a bunch of talented and ambitious people and you see what success looks like and how fast everyone else is growing. It's a good kind of peer pressure where you're like, okay, we're clearly not moving as fast as the best people, what can we do differently?

This helped us realize that programming education wasn’t the right problem for us to solve—it’s a very competitive industry and we weren’t the best team for it. So, we made our first pivot. We took our technology and shifted the focus to helping companies building technical products like APIs create better demos for sales and marketing. We got our first customer within a week, raised a small amount of money. From there we hired our first engineer, Gerardo, and went head down into building our product. 

Again, we built a product that we were proud of, but sales went much slower than we wanted. More importantly, we realized that this was a problem we stumbled on and not one that we were passionate about or had any expertise in. We were too reactive with our first pivot, so this time, we thought more deeply about what to do next.

We started from scratch and started thinking about what interesting problems we were uniquely equipped to solve. We threw out a bunch of ideas, with a rough thesis that AI was going to enable products that weren’t possible in the past. When you entered YC, AI was gaining traction in the industry. Yeah, in our batch of YC, a meaningful percent of companies focused on AI, but the next batch was almost completely AI. GPT-4 came out at the end of our batch.

One idea that quickly bubbled to the top of my list was that user research is very time-consuming. I had actually written down this problem in multiple notebooks over the years. 

You and I have done a ton of research at big and small companies and it’s always a challenge. Yes! First, companies don't do enough research and often skip the step because it takes up too much time. If you actually want to test prototypes with a customer or do some foundational research before writing a PRD, it takes weeks because you need to find people, schedule interviews, have a bunch of 30-minute conversations over multiple weeks, and then read through all these transcripts to pull out all the insights. 

When I faced this problem in the past, I didn’t have an idea for how to solve it. But, with what language models like GPT-4 are good at, it became obvious to me that this was the right time. AI could turn surveys into rich user conversations, and do the analysis for you in minutes. 

It became my obsession and I wouldn't shut up about it! laughing, David and I would be talking about our old product, and I'd be like, "Oh, what about this? Here's an article I found on user research."

It was obvious to you and you started sharing on Linkedin and with your network connections. People started contacting you because they wanted to have these conversations—especially folks in the design and research worlds because we know this is a big problem. Could you talk a little bit about how you approached connecting with your community and how that brought you to the current version of Versive?

Posting on Linkedin and reaching out to people in the industry was really useful. When we started, we talked to dozens of people: researchers, designers, marketers, PMs. People from three-person to 10,000-person companies across all industries. Every company is trying to understand their customers in some way.

We started off working with startups because they were the most open to trying a new product. We built an MVP that allowed users to create a conversational survey where the AI would ask dynamic probing questions. We convinced a bunch of startups to use our product to launch real studies. We learned that the frequency of research for smaller startups was too low for them to pay to use the tool so we moved onto trying to build a more robust platform for larger customers. If you're in a thousand-person company, you have multiple pods constantly trying to understand customers. Employees have less context and understanding customers becomes harder but also more important

We signed our first paying design partners and worked with them to build out tons of new features. We shipped AI analysis tools, a better study builder, more question types, voice interviews, usability testing, question logic, and dozens of other big features. And that’s about where we are now. We’ve brought on some name-brand customers and we’re working with them to continue to evolve the product. 

Now that you're at this stage of your career and life, do you feel like you were able to draw from previous experience or pull something from your toolkit to help you grow? And on the flip side, what are new things you're trying to learn or something that you're experiencing for the first time?

On the first question: yes, a little bit of everything. Ultimately, I'm solving this problem because it was a problem that I faced in my previous roles. That helps a lot when you're working on a startup. I can make better and faster decisions because I have more context and intuition.

I think being a designer and, in particular, working at startups has helped too. To start a software company you need to be able to do things: build the product and get people to use it. Being a designer helps you design a better product, but that alone is not enough. You also need to understand the business, figure out how to sell and market what you’re building, solve the thousands of operational problems that come up, and ideally also be able to pitch in on writing code. Working at startups has made me comfortable with ambiguity and learning on the fly.

On the second question, almost everything is new. David and I have to make every single decision, there’s nobody to delegate to. If I want to move things forward, I have to figure out how to do it myself. I’ve become a much better programmer because writing code is the ultimate way to improve the product. I went from barely understanding Javascript to shipping tens of thousands of lines of code in the last year. Some weeks, I spent 50-60 hours writing code. Thank god for ChatGPT.

Also, I was exposed to different roles like Sales and Marketing at startups but unless you've done the job full time, it's not the same. I've sat in on sales calls, but when you actually have to take the sales call yourself and be willing to be uncomfortable and ask questions, present prices, and ask for commitments, that's hard, and that's new for me. The other thing that's really new for me is putting myself out there because if it were up to me, I would just stay in my room and write code. I wouldn't be posting on Linkedin for fun to build a following, but it’s really important for the business.

Overall, this is definitely the hardest job I've done, where I've had the most self-doubt because I'm still not good at it. And the ceiling for being good is very high. That’s scary but also very exciting.

What are you most excited for next? The story for Versive is still being written. I'm very optimistic about how things are going. Things are moving faster than before, and it feels right. We're excited about two main things. The first is that we still need to build a lot for the product. We have a big vision and want to build the next big customer research platform, like Qualtrics or UserTesting and there’s a lot of exciting work to do to get there. 

Secondly, we started working with small teams. They were happy with us, but not all were willing to pay. We've shifted towards starting to work with larger companies, and we’re now working with companies we admire that have thousands of employees. And we're really excited to see where that goes. Going forward, It'll be my focus to figure out how we bring on more of these large customers and make them successful. It’s exciting and daunting at the same time.

Why does any of this matter to you—from all your decisions in your personal life and career? Well, we have to work, or at least I do. You spend a lot of time and mental energy working, and in an ideal world, the work is interesting. And you're working on something that you want to solve or teaches you new things. That it's fun and engaging. And that's something I learned about myself: that when I leave a job, it's because I get bored and don’t find fulfillment.

So now, with starting a company, I see this as an experiment I’ve wanted to try for a long time. I have something that I want to put out there that solves a problem—one that I've experienced. While it's not saving lives or anything, [being a founder] is the most interesting and fulfilling thing I've done. I'm creating something from scratch and solving a real problem for people. I'm learning way more than I ever have learned, and at the end of the day, I'm doing this for myself. I'm not answering to anyone other than customers.

…[being a founder] is the most interesting and fulfilling thing I've done. I'm creating something from scratch and solving a real problem for people.

And at the same time, when you're working at or on your own startup, you definitely have less time for your personal life. But I think you can still make time for it by cutting out other things in your life that are not valuable. I still make time for things like spending time with my wife, friends, and cat. With Mochi! Yes, and I want to pursue my hobbies like climbing and running and I’ve found that I can still make time, even in my most productive weeks at work.

Are there any misconceptions about you, the work you do, or the industry you're in? A couple of things. When you have a job, people tend to put you in a bucket. People assumed that finance people are analytical and obsessed with making money. That they only care about these things. And then, when you're a designer, people assume you just care about the creative side of things. You only think about the user and don't understand the business. But, there's a lot of fluidity in people's careers. We both know a lot of people who've done all kinds of different things. If you're in a career and you're feeling like this isn't for you, you can switch.

…there's a lot of fluidity in people's careers. We both know a lot of people who've done all kinds of different things. If you're in a career and you're feeling like this isn't for you, you can switch.

Another misconception is that in startups, I feel like you hear a lot of extreme opinions. Like, "Oh, I can never start a company because it's so much work”  or “it must be nice starting your own company where you don't have to answer to anyone." The truth is more nuanced. I definitely work more than I used to, but I still have time for my personal life. I don't always feel overwhelmed or burnt out. And yes, I have a lot of freedom, but I also feel a lot more personal responsibility. In some ways, it's just another job with its own pros and cons that many people should consider.

There's fluidity in careers but also in the focus on different problems. Even the misconception of time, which is how much time you're spending versus how much your focus is on work versus personal, is all gray. It sounds like you're advocating for the fact that there's a lot in the in-between. Ultimately, it's really how you put those pieces together and decide where or what you want to pursue. I agree with that; maybe the overarching thing is that there's no one way to do things. Often, people ask, "What's the right way to do this?" or "How do I optimize my career?" But having done all these different types of work at different companies and roles, I don't think there's a right way to do things. It's perfectly valid to be working in a big tech job that is paying really well, and you spend your time on other parts of your life. It’s also perfectly valid to pursue something you’re passionate about with all of your waking hours. It just depends on where you are, your priorities, and something that you should reevaluate all the time.

I love that answer because we realize there is no right answer as we age. When we’re younger, we look to more experienced people to tell us what to do. But the moment we realize that no one can tell us what to do and that we must make that decision ourselves because the decision is in our hands at the end of the day. And it's all about trying. Whatever you try, let's just do it—and that's been a recent learning for me. 

When you're younger, you think of time differently. Everything is like a rush, and you're a bit more judgemental when you say, "Oh, I don't want to be where this person is at age 35, right?" And you're like, "I want to be here instead!" or "Why is this person doing this with their time?" And it's now like you appreciate where you are, the decisions everyone has made, the journeys people have taken, and you understand why people took these paths. I don't think there is a right answer.

…you appreciate where you are, the decisions everyone has made, the journeys people have taken, and you understand why people took these paths. I don't think there is a right answer.

I wouldn't have expected to be doing this when I graduated from college. Yup, you would have been in private equity! And I would have a lot more wrinkles and gray hair. laughing

If you could pick an Eric at any point in time in the past, what advice would you give him? I'd probably go back to high school or college. I would encourage myself to pursue things I was interested in more seriously, regardless of whether they were "the right things" everyone else was trying to do.

When I was younger, it took me a while to figure out that I was interested in art, so maybe I should have pursued that more by taking classes in school, building out a portfolio, and going to a design program. Or maybe, in college, I should have looked into spending all my time on entrepreneurial and design-related things. 

Give us a list of 3 things you'd recommend. You choose the topic.

1. Libby the Library app or libraries in general. A lot of US cities use this app called Libby, which lets you rent books. I use audiobooks the most, and I started using this app around Thanksgiving. I hadn't read any books in the past two years, but I've read eight or nine books in the last couple of months.

2. Get a smart oven! A smart countertop convection oven changes the way we cook. Big ovens take 30 minutes to heat up, but these take two to three minutes. It cooks things faster and doesn't make your entire apartment hot. You could literally bake a chicken for lunch if you wanted to.

3. Use AI tools to make your job and life easier. Use ChatGPT and Claude. Use it to negotiate your rent like Leslie did! Or use it to write code or learn something new. It's been one of those things that has saved me so much time. It gives you specific answers and doesn't require you to read Stack Overflow threads for 20 minutes just to answer a question.

What is your favorite or current song you have on repeat?

Please Please Please by Sabrina Carpenter

Enjoyed the Conversation with Eric Li? Learn more about Eric's company, Versive, a faster, more effective way to conduct AI-powered user research at versive.com. You can also find him on Linkedin.

Eric is also passionate about giving back to Animal Care Centers of NYC

Animal Care Centers of NYC (ACC) is a New York-based non-profit working to ensure that stray and surrendered pets have access to food, shelter, and medical care as they wait to find a loving home. A donation was made to Animal Care Centers of NYC as part of this Conversation.

You can support Animal Care Centers of NYC by donating directly and consider adopting or fostering a furry friend.

Adapted from a live presentation to my fellow peers in the Uber Delivery Design team in July 2024. I’ve been designing full-time in-house and freelance since 2014, when I started my career in small to medium-sized startups as a design team of a few or the only designer on the team. I joined Uber’s Delivery Design organization in 2019 and have had the pleasure of being a part of several teams, including Merchant, Ads, Membership, and, most recently, leading the Consumer Growth design team. 

By the way, I offer 1:1 design coaching for early- and mid-career designers and those navigating their next step. Sessions are practical and hands-on, with focus areas that include:

• Resume, case study, portfolio, and interview prep

• Leveling up craft and strategy through critiques

• Navigating startup and corporate environments as a woman of color

With over 6 years of coaching experience and a decade in the design industry, I provide grounded, practical guidance tailored to your specific goals.

Book a 1-on-1 Design Coaching Session

Often, we talk about wanting a seat at the table, but what is the table? Once you get there, what does it mean to have the space, and how do you continue to ensure it is valued? I aim to walk through a few ways to understand what influence means and tangible tools you can adapt, apply, and iterate into your workflow so that we shift the conversation from “I want a seat at the table.” to “Here’s what I bring to the table, and what we’ll build together.”

Influence requires trust

According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, to have influence is to have the capacity or power to cause an effect in an intangible or indirect way. To me, influence in the context of our careers is about our soft skills. While those technical craft skills are just as important as a designer, being able to effectively collaborate is an endeavor that requires more than being incredible as a team of one. Because your deliverables are ultimately only one part of the process, getting to the right direction or solution requires teamwork and influence.

So, to have influence, you must have a foundation of trust between yourself and the people you want to influence or build influence with. 

Gaining trust requires effort

01. Establishing trust

Establishing trust is important, whether it's your first day on the job, starting a new project, or joining a new team. From my experience across each area I've worked in within Uber (and across many jobs and clients), establishing a relationship helps set the tone of the relationship across all parties.

Take the time to understand your collaborators and their motivations. It's not only about you and what you need as a designer to do your job well. It's also about ensuring that you understand your collaborators and their goals while helping them understand yours. 

Specifically, ask and learn about working styles. Are your collaborators more efficient via Slack? Do they like to jump on a call or walk over to your desk to jam? Then, figure out how that fits your style better. You can always iterate as you go. When you try to meet someone where they are and feel seen, they are more likely to be able to easily work with you since you’re already tapped into their process seamlessly. Ultimately, it's about finding a middle ground to make the process more effective for all parties.

Across different organizations, each team and role also has different priorities. Understanding these priorities, along with an individual’s motivations, can help you better understand why someone prioritizes an idea or decision that may not be immediately obvious to you. Over time, building this muscle to understand motivations can also help you with negotiation and trade-off conversations.

For example, across different organizations at Uber and other tech startups I’ve worked with, teams have different OKRs (Objective and Key Results) and goals to hit. And oftentimes, it’s not simply to “deliver the best user experience.” 

Product Managers, for example, focus on OKRs and business goals and ensure alignment across many areas. Just like designers, product managers all have their own styles of working but ultimately need to hit their goals and metrics (hopefully with you). So, it’s important to take the time to understand the language (key metrics, technical foundation, and tradeoffs) and the “whys” behind them to understand if something is important or isn’t to get on the same page. 

Engineering, for example, often considers code efficiency, whether in the actual development process (handoff, engineering requirements documentation, etc…) or the outcome (reducing latency, load times, high code quality, etc…). They often also care about using the best methods and technologies to build effectively and scale without being bogged down by old systems or arbitrary processes. So, it's important to take the time to understand what drives your engineering counterparts to feel empowered to do their work and what they find most impactful.

Whenever you start on a new team or project, level set via informal 1:1s and formal kick-offs:

• For informal 1:1s, ask about your collaborator's experiences and personal goals. This can help you understand why they might place a stronger emphasis on values like in-person communication over Slack or that they ultimately might want to strive for a particular career goal that you can align with.

• For formal kick-offs, get the team together and ensure alignment in project/team/individual goals, who is accountable for what, and why. This is a great way to identify OKRs, goals, metrics, and constraints and gather initial ideas from the team.

Read more

You can read the original post directly at https://www.getversive.com/blog/resourceful-research-leslie-luo or continue reading below.

As product designers, identifying the right problems to solve and how to solve them requires not just intuition but also insight. Insights can come in various forms, such as quantitative data about product usage or qualitative findings from customer interviews.

Whether you're a design team of one or many, gathering insights can be intimidating and time-consuming. It's easy to understand why teams decide not to incorporate research into their design process.

Instead of forgoing it, let's chat about a few ways we can get creative to make insight-informed decisions throughout the product development cycle.

Research as a strategic shift in perspective

Teams often skip research for a few common reasons: it can be expensive, require specific expertise, and eat up precious time. It can be tough to balance these factors, especially when deadlines are looming.

But here's the thing: looking at research as a smart investment changes the game. When we gather both qualitative and quantitative data, we're not just guessing. We're building stronger hypotheses and making decisions based on solid insights, not just gut feelings.

Investing in research upfront also pays off big time. It saves us from building things that miss the mark with users, saving us headaches and rework later on. So let's dive into research with confidence, knowing it's our not-so-secret weapon for creating products that users love.

Let's take a look at a couple of case studies that illustrate how research can level-up your product design.

Case study: Fundera

How an up-front investment in leveraging existing customer insight via shadowing cross-functional colleagues, understanding customer data, and validating prototype concepts helps teams like Fundera execute more efficiently and understand the "why"s behind user interaction

At Fundera, while we didn't have a dedicated research team, we dove headfirst into understanding our users' needs. My days were filled with shadowing our sales teammates and absorbing valuable insights from their customer interactions. This hands-on approach fueled our initial development of a customized onboarding workflow that hit the mark with our users and their needs.

To back up our instincts, we delved into metrics using MixPanel and conducted user tests via UserTesting. These tests were game-changers, validating our hypotheses and guiding our product and design decisions in the right direction. This upfront investment of gathering insights allowed us to understand the "why" behind user interactions. This allowed us to more quickly refine our hypotheses, iterate on our product, and ship features that solved actual user needs.

This approach to research wasn't about following a flawless process. It was about using every tool in our toolbox to make informed decisions and create products that truly resonated with our users. By being resourceful and understanding our customers and data, we were able to more effectively experiment, learn, and craft experiences that made a real impact.

Case study: U.S. Federal Government

How the U.S. Federal Government leveraged hallway testing and A/B testing to update the highest stakes moment when someone calls the National Suicide Prevention Hotline: the hold music

Don't just take it from me. One of my favorite stories about research comes from Radiolab's "Hold On" episode. In the episode, hosts Lulu Miller and Simon Adler delve into a crucial issue: many callers to the National Suicide Hotline hang up due to the time it takes to connect with a qualified counselor.

During this waiting period, callers are subjected to hold music. The team wanted to understand whether this hold music had an impact on callers hanging up. So, they turned to research and testing.

Despite the constraints of a small sample size and regulatory limitations like the Paperwork Reduction Act, the team utilized hallway testing with around 8-9 participants, where they went around the National Mall in Washington D.C. and stopping bystanders to get their feedback. This scrappy yet impactful approach provided enough information to lead the team to run a countrywide A/B test. This test found a statistically significant increase in callers staying on the line, when the hold music was improved.

The example illustrates the power of using testing and research, even in resource-constrained situations, to uncover insights and drive actionable outcomes. It underscores the importance of starting small and applying creative methodologies even the largest issues.

Some actionable takeaways

Considering running your own research for your teams? Here are a few parting ideas that I would recommend:

• Leverage Internal Teams: Your sales, operations, business development, and other internal teams can be a goldmine of knowledge about user needs and pain points. Tap into their insights to inform your research efforts.

• Explore Third-Party Tools: Look into third-party tools that align with your team's needs and budget. Unmoderated research tools can help you start collecting insights faster. Start with something simple that meets your initial requirements and evolve and automate as you progress.

• Utilize Website/App Tracking Metrics: Make use of website or app tracking metrics to develop stronger hypotheses. Data-driven insights from user behavior can guide your research direction and validate your assumptions.

• Hallway Testing: Don't underestimate the power of hallway testing. Whether you're testing general usability with your own teammates or testing new concepts with external users, hallway testing can provide quick and valuable feedback to refine your designs.

By embracing these strategies and taking a hands-on approach to research, product designers can gain valuable insights, validate assumptions, and ultimately create products that better meet user needs and expectations. Keep experimenting, learning, and iterating to drive continuous improvement in your design process.

You can find more resources on incorporating user research into your product development process via AI and much more on the Versive Blog.

I also offer 1:1 design coaching for early-career designers and those navigating their next step. Sessions are practical and hands-on, with focus areas that include:

• Resume, case study, portfolio, and interview prep

• Leveling up craft and strategy through critiques

• Navigating startup and corporate environments as a woman of color

With over 6 years of coaching experience and a decade in the design industry, I provide grounded, practical guidance tailored to your specific goals.

Book a 1-on-1 Design Coaching Session

Meet Abi Garapati, née Suresh, a human living and loving life in New York City. Driven by fostering community, Abi co-hosts Olive Tree Writing Club, a weekly writing community for writers of all experiences. In this conversation, she shares how her immense curiosity and deep passion for community was fostered by a pivotal time living abroad in Rome, Italy, before entering the full-time workforce, which fundamentally shifted and changed how she now approaches navigating and balancing the American ideal of striving for success. While she doesn't claim to have figured out the "right path," she's enjoying the experience of exploring and learning about herself and the world through lived experience. 

Interviewed on December 2023 | This conversation has been edited for clarity and brevity.

Introduce yourself and tell the audience what you want them to know about you. I'm Abi. I'm an eclectic mixed bag of a person. I recently discovered that the world is really big in the last year, so I am having a moment where I don't have an identity, but everything is my identity. It's been a really fun, cool time of random stuff. I want people to know I try everything, am open to everything, and love learning new things.

What things have you loved learning recently or just had fun doing? I run a writing club, and I'm obsessed with it. It's called Olive Tree Writing Club. We meet every week on Wednesdays at 7 PM in SoHo. And it has changed my life. I started as an attendee and became a co-host with my friend James. It's been incredible to see how it's grown, so that's a big part of my identity. 

I also recently revamped my blog called Verbinding. I've recently started learning to sketch, paint, and make video games. I don't know how to code, but I am learning. I've been deep-diving into everything coffee: roasting, brewing, new tools and techniques, harvesting, and geography in how it affects flavor. I've been learning Veena, which is like a really old Indian sitar-type instrument. I'm really into fashion, so I'm learning more about textiles. I've gotten into this rabbit hole about math recently. I was never a mathematician growing up, but man, math is cool. But more so about the whole concept that math is fake. Oh boy, conspiracy theories?! laughing Yes, I love conspiracy theories!

It sounds like you love doing a ton of things, and you have many things going on right now. What compels you to want to learn and try many things? It's New York City. And I know that's so corny because everyone's like, "Oh, the city of opportunity, the city never sleeps." But it's really just that. Ever since I moved to the city, something in me clicked. I met just the coolest people that do the weirdest things. Everyone here is so intelligent and so open. It feels like the world's your oyster here. I've fully embraced that personality. The city is so inspiring with its people and all its opportunities. It's been really great.

You mentioned a time before New York City—can you walk us through what that transition was like to the city or what life was like before you moved? I can start from the beginning. Before, I was living in Baltimore for four years.

I loved the city, but like man, it was difficult to live in because it's so small. It was quite drab, and it felt uninspiring. I was going through the motions there, working for two years and doing my MBA for another two years. 

But then I got a job and moved to New York City; I didn't feel anything about it. A lot of people are like, "Ooh! New York City, Yeah, I'm so excited!" But I had this conception that New York City people are really hardworking, which they are. And you're going to be in FiDi and working crazy hours, then you go home and do the whole thing where you go out, go back to sleep, and that's your day every day, and I was prepared. I was like, "Yup, I'm going to work my ass off, go to tech mixers, business meetups, and network and climb the corporate ladder."

I came [to New York], and I ended up going to a lot of tech mixers, entrepreneurial meetups, and stuff like that, but it always felt really weird and inorganic. I didn't fit in, and it felt forced. And so, I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna do that, but also try and explore other communities I'm interested in."

I knew writing was a big interest of mine, so I was like, "I gotta find a writing club in the city." I went to Book Club, the bar in East Village, where they used to have weekly or every few weeks writing sessions that were free and other workshops. In the end, people can hang out and talk. 

I had never met people like the ones I spoke to at Book Club. It's not because they're like, "Oh, I'm like the CEO of this company or whatever." It's like, this person was a full-time actor. This one person quit their cushy investment banking job to build realistic models of architectural icons around the world out of toothpicks. It's just like, "Man, you do that full-time? For real?" And it's also fun for them. 

I had this awakening that night [after the first workshop], and I remember walking home, and I was like, "The world is so big." I had no idea. I did know, but I had no idea up until now. It was crazy, and I woke up the next day; I canceled all the other mixers I was planning for.

I was like, "Why am I forcing myself to do something I'm not interested in?" And I reached out to those people I met and exchanged information, and was like, "I want to learn more about you. I love you in a non-weird way, but like tell me more. Start from the beginning, and I want to learn more about you."

That's how everything started. Then, it just really got out of control from there. I kept meeting more and more people and learning more and more about how big the world is. Now I'm like this crazy person that's just like, "Let's do everything."

Was it living in Baltimore and the contrast with your experience in New York that kicked off the way you explored the world? Before Baltimore, I lived in Rome, Italy, for some time. First, it was a study abroad program for a couple of months, and then it turned into me being employed by my college as a student liaison in Rome.

I was in Italy for a while. And you know what my personality is? Italy is my personality, I would say. laughing I'm so annoying with it, but I met this 85-year-old Italian grandma, and she changed my entire life; it's like a whole "eat, pray, love" thing, but in real life where she was like everything to me. 

We spent every day together. She's my best friend, mentor, and guide, and she showed me everything about life. If you've ever been to Italy, you know that everything feels just so romantic—like even in the movies. You can't even take a picture in Italy without it looking like it's straight out of a romance film from 1920.

That's what it feels like in person to me, too. European culture, in general, is very different from American culture. It's more community-based and laid back, and it's more surrounding the fact that you have your family and friends and spend time with them. Career jumping, career climbing, or working hard in your job—all that stuff is not as important.

What's important is taking care of yourself and others, eating good food, and drinking good wine. That's what life is about. Is it everything opposite of American culture? Yes.

It was crazy because it was my first time traveling alone without my family. It was such a formative experience, especially spending time with nonna, the grandma that I met. It was just incredible. I returned from that trip and remember being like, "I get it. This is who I want to be. Like, I don't think that life is about your career."

Unless that's what you're really passionate about, that's great. But for me, I don't, when I sit and think like, what do I want to do with my life? It's not like I want to be the CEO of this company. It's more like I want to make memories. I want to make lasting relationships. I want to try good food, and I just like helping people. So, I had that for some time, and then I think American life kind of wore down on me again.

I want to make memories. I want to make lasting relationships. I want to try good food, and I just like helping people.

And then you returned to the States after that period in Rome? I came back and lived in Michigan, where I'm from, for a year. I got an entry-level job that didn't pay much, but it was a salary, and I had never really made a salary before, so I was like, "Wow, that's cool." I was also living at home because my parents were there, so I saved a lot of money, which I'm really grateful for. And yeah, making money for the first time and having that independence.

Then I was getting into this grind of people around you telling you that you're supposed to want to climb the ladder; you're supposed to want to improve your professional skills. And I'm like, "Okay. Got it." Keep going down that path, keep moving jobs, and get higher pay and better titles. And you get into that grind, and it goes into a couple of years, and it's just like, "Okay, this is what life is."

At some point, did you go to get your MBA? So I worked for three years. And then I met my friend, Veron. I was working in Baltimore and working hard at this job. Our class of summer interns came, and one of them was this guy [Veron] who was directly reporting to our team.

He wouldn't do his work so I went to confront him and found that he was reading Letters to Shareholders. Specifically, he said, "It's really important to know how to invest and have financial literacy."

"I'll make a deal with you," he says, "I will help you invest and better understand financial literacy if you do my work for me this summer." And he's only a summer intern. I was like, "Okay, deal." 

I think meeting him and hearing him talk about this, I could immediately tell he is a savant at investing in finance. He will be humble and deny this, but he's very good. And I was like, he's got something going on. I feel like this is important. 

He was actually at Johns Hopkins doing his MBA—so he's a graduate intern. So he told me more about why he's getting an MBA and what he's doing at Johns Hopkins specifically. He's like, "I think a good move for you would be to get your MBA." And so I trust him with my life to this day. I got my MBA after that.

Do you think pursuing your MBA was because you felt you had to level up your career? Or was there some other reason behind it? That definitely was it. I wanted to first get out of the company that I was in [at the time]. I was not happy; it was not fulfilling. But see where I could be, and I was really interested. 

At the beginning of my MBA career, I was like, "Oh, maybe I'll be a consultant or go into investment banking." That died out really, really quickly, so thank God. Then I pivoted and was like, "Yes, I want to do it. I want to be in big tech. I want the name brand of working for Google or Apple or whatever it is." I just wanted that validation of, "Oh, she's smart. She knows what she's doing. She got an MBA, and then she went and worked at Google. That's crazy. Good for her."

I didn't even care about what I would do there or why I would want to do it. Again, this whole Westernized concept that it doesn't matter: just get there and do it; nothing else matters.

I felt completely brainwashed. In my first year of my MBA, I worked like a dog. I worked hard and wanted to get that four-point [GPA]. And I did all my projects and all this stuff to get that all on paper. 

Then, I started dating my now fiancé, and he was the one who helped me realize that none of this matters. And that, no offense to anyone who has an MBA, I have an MBA. It's a fake degree. It doesn't really matter. 

And he's like, "Whether or not you get a four-point [GPA], whether or not you get an A's on projects, whether or not you are the president of all these clubs will not matter, just do your MBA, you get the name at the end of your title, and then you can just do whatever you want. Just relax, have fun, and network. The people are the important part."

So, I relaxed heavily to the point of the complete opposite end of the spectrum, where I did nothing for school. I did that and then graduated with a 3.9 [GPA], which is crazy.

But it worked out really well. At the end of it, the market was starting to crash. I did an internship at a FAANG company in the middle of my MBA, as most people do. I was like, "Okay, now that I have this big tech name under me, I will get a job at Big Tech somewhere, and I can do it." It's not true. It was hard to get jobs, and I tried when I graduated in May 2022. 

It was difficult finding a new role because no one wanted to hire me. I was applying everywhere. I ended up reaching out to one person in my MBA [program] who had a connection and ended up getting my first job [post-graduation], which was the only offer I had. So I was like, "Okay, well, I guess I'm stuck with this. Like, let's just make the best of it."

Coming to the present day, where's your head now? You spoke about embracing life in a way where your career doesn't define you, but it sounded like it did pretty recently in getting your MBA and switching careers. Yeah, my career did define me. To your point, this is what society tells you; this is what the culture and tradition of your upbringing tell you. You put your sense of worth and esteem into that, which is very toxic, but it's also hard not to do that.

I'm speaking from a very high place of privilege right now to say, "Yeah, go explore the world and do whatever you want." But many people, or most people, are not in that space to do that. I got very lucky. 

If life didn't take me to New York City, if I didn't happen to be at Book Club Bar, and if I didn't meet those people and these experiences, I very well could probably statistically be on the same route. I would be a manager, director, or vice president of whatever company I don't care about. But it looks really good, and my parents are proud of me.

It was also a huge wake-up call to me that this is very much a small chance of luck, and I could not be more grateful. I can't believe I made a last-minute decision that night and decided to go to Book Club and be like, "Let me try this writing community because I'm bored of all these mixers." And [those choices] literally changed my life. My life completely pivoted from that. To anyone in this situation, I think you make your own luck. 

It's hard. I can't prescribe a one-size-fits-all, "Yes, go try everything!" But definitely don't be afraid to make your own luck and get out there; try something you've been wanting to try. You'll never know who you'll meet or what you'll experience. Don't discount anything.

I think you make your own luck. It's hard. I can't prescribe a one-size-fits-all, "Yes, go try everything!" But definitely don't be afraid to make your own luck and get out there; try something you've been wanting to try. You'll never know who you'll meet or what you'll experience. Don't discount anything.

While you're emphasizing a lot of the "well, I just happened to do something," there's a nugget in there that you're dialing down for yourself because you're very humble, Abi. Your intuition of knowing that you wanted more drove you to go and be open and try out Book Club. Because there are a lot of reasons for us to say no to things like "No, I'm tired. No, I don't want to go. etc..." Instead, you decided, "I want to try this thing and let me go and see what happens. It's a nice way to open ourselves up to more opportunities.

I often like to think that luck involves a lot of preparation and the right timing. While some things are truly systemic hurdles or boosts where life gives more opportunities to folks who are of a certain gender, ethnicity, or socio-economic status, there are moments where, outside of the system, being a little bit more open to wanting to experience things that are afforded to you, does continue to open doors or even ever so slightly. Yes! *chefs kiss*

To summarize our conversation, why does approaching our lives more openly or just trying matter to you? And why does having a non-linear "let's not climb the ladder" kind of journey matter to you? I've discovered much about what's important to me, what I value in other people, and who I want to surround myself with. In the beginning, New York City is very overwhelming in the sense that you want to do everything, like meet everyone and do everything. And I used to be such a "yes" person. I still am. Now I have a very curated group of people called Verci, and people outside of Verci that share a lot of those [similar values]. I think those kinds of people are just like multi-hyphenated people.

I want to do all the things and just share that similar mindset. You have to be careful with your time. Time is the most precious asset. I don't regret all of the time between Italy and now. But I mean, if you're reading this and you're at that point of your life, I think the best thing to do is: don't wait, like, just go out there; life is short, and it's time. Now is the time to do it.

…I think the best thing to do is: don't wait, like, just go out there; life is short, and it's time. Now is the time to do it.

Are there any other misconceptions you want to chat about? There's a huge stereotype around non-corporate climbing people or people who don't work for big-name companies, especially in the US and New York City, that you're not ambitious or intelligent. I find that false. The most intelligent people that I have met are not people who work for Google and Apple or like our investment bankers at Goldman Sachs. They are the people who make architectural buildings out of toothpicks. It's being surrounded by a community of New York City where many multi-hyphenated people do all sorts of things.

Seeing the different forms of intelligence and ambition is cool. People are just really cool. I love people. And I think it's a huge misconception that I want to stop.

People who are passionate about something are very smart about that topic or thing. You don't have to be smart about everything, but that intelligence comes with a lot of passion and determination around a topic you might genuinely love. You might be dumb when it comes to street smarts, but you might be so intelligent with the books or whatever it might be. It doesn't mean you're not a whole person, but there are parts of us. There is no one definition of intelligence. 

It's a big identity with people who are Westernized that you have to be productive all the time.

The definition of being productive is subjective, and the definition of being productive all the time is also subjective. I think that's wrong and very toxic. I used to think that if I was not doing something at all times, and if it was not productive, it was a waste of time. It was especially hard; even to this day, I'm still struggling with that.

With so much stuff going on, you can sit and do nothing or sit and have a little mini-spa day. Just walk around or have a coffee. It's okay. I recently read something where they describe time as a medium in which our life unfolds rather than a resource we always have to utilize to do things in life. When you start thinking of time as a medium instead of a resource, then your concept of "wasting time" is no longer relevant, true, or valid. Because it's exactly that, it's just like time is meant to be. It's just time. You do what you need to do at that moment. Take care of yourself. Sit and stare at a wall for an hour. No time is wasted if it's what you want to do. If it makes you happy or other people happy, just do it. 

When you start thinking of time as a medium instead of a resource, then your concept of "wasting time" is no longer relevant, true, or valid. Because it's exactly that, it's just like time is meant to be. It's just time. You do what you need to do at that moment. Take care of yourself. Sit and stare at a wall for an hour. No time is wasted if it's what you want to do. If it makes you happy or other people happy, just do it.

Similarly, Kirk Fernandes, a recent guest on west & ease, talks about treating our bodies and minds like how athletes approach performance. They need rest to do what they do. It's good to chill out for a bit and allow time to pass because time won't pass without you. The more we fight it, the harder it will be because it's a mental thing we must work towards.

I have this motto that I want to make every day of my life memorable, but that doesn't mean I have to fly out to Bali and make a trip every day. It's more like I could be sitting at home, and I smell the scent of a candle that is so yummy. And I'm like, "Wow, I love life. I love the smell of plums. Like, wow, amazing." That's also just so beautiful because it's enjoying life itself. We can enjoy both really big moments and everyday moments.

Do you have any advice for a past you that you want to share your thoughts with? Can I just say, "Stay in Italy?"  laughing  No, I don't think that's the right answer. I think what happened was meant to be happening in the time frame it was supposed to happen. I don't think staying in Italy would have been the right move because I would never have come to New York. New York City is a big formative part of my life, too. 

One piece of advice I'd give my younger self is to just "Be open." I was in a different phase of needing this advice at all points in my life. I was very competitive and focused on specific things when I was younger. In college, I was also very focused on partying and making friends, and I thought that was the thing to do. 

Even in my time in Baltimore, working and stuff, I was very narrow-minded. I had one specific goal, and I wanted to reach that goal. It's great to have goals, but I think if I could tell myself to be more open and to experience life and just take it as it is and think it's just a beautiful thing and it has so much to offer and don't shut anything else out, that would be very helpful.

I think I'd be in a very different place right now, but I love where I am right now, so it's good.

Give us a list of three things you'd recommend. You choose the topic. 

1. Tuesdays with Morrie by Mitch Albom

   1. "Formative!" is the word I would use to describe this book. He's a damn good writer, which makes sense because he was a sports broadcaster. It's a real story and memoir about him and his teacher in graduate school. His teacher found out he had some terminal illness and he was going to die. And everyone was sad, but he was just like, "No, man, let's party, rage, and make memories." The whole book follows the premise of the quote that goes like, "You learn to live when you learn to die." It's the most heartfelt, beautifully written story of this older man who just had such love for life and was ready to go. He imparted all this wisdom and positivity to his students. It's a short read, and it's so nice. I read this book before I met Nonna, but it reminds me of her, especially about living and loving life.

2. Un Sospiro by Franz Liszt

   1. I used to dabble in classical piano back in the day. This is my absolute favorite classical song from the Romantic era. When I first heard it, I cried. Well, I still cry at this song. It's a beautiful masterpiece of a composed song that I can't even describe. It felt very fitting when I first listened to it. I felt like I was going through a lot, and listening to this made me feel like, "Wow, life is worth living. This is great stuff." Like, no words to this song.

3. Nationwide Commercial with H.E.R.

   1. It's very deeply emotional for me. I really like H.E.R. as an artist, and I like it when they show montages of their day-to-day normal lives. Those two things, put together, just make me so emotional. I love people, I love life, and I love music. It's all beautiful things combined.

Favorite song or song you have on repeat at the moment?

 "I Know" by Travis Scott

I recently went to a Travis Scott concert, and it was transformative. Seriously, I cannot stop thinking about the beat and energy. And the way Travis Scott performed, he showed up and brought it like I have never seen in my life. He knew how to get the crowd going.

Enjoyed the Conversation with Abi Suresh? Learn more about Olive Tree Writing Club, which Abi co-hosts @otwc_nyc on Instagram. You can also follow her writing at www.verbinding.org

Verbinding

Verbinding; a collection of short stories about real, chance encounters with strangers. It’s a window into the feelings of sonder and longing for connection.

By Abi Suresh

Abi is also passionate about giving back to The Bowery Mission.  

The Bowery Mission exists to promote the flourishing of New Yorkers overcoming homelessness and marginalization by providing compassionate services and a transformative community. A donation was made to The Bowery Project as part of this Conversation.

You can support The Bowery Project by donating directly.

Donate to The Bowery Mission

Meet Sam Ray Lee, a musician, singer, songwriter, UI/UX designer, freelance photographer, and one-half of the musical duo Umami House based in Brooklyn, NY. Sam's creative journey starts from an early age. It morphs into an integral part of his identity, with each new pursuit growing and adapting to particular periods of his life. He shares how music came into his life and temporarily left when he married at an early age and how divorce brought him back to embracing and pursuing his creative musical journey. That and how other creative pursuits like photography and design have enabled his musical journey. We also get a glimpse into the origin of how Umami House came to fruition and parting advice for his early self as he set off into his creative journey and identities. 

Interviewed in December 2023

Heads up, the interview contains some explicit language that may not be suitable for all audiences. This conversation has been edited for clarity and brevity.

Can you introduce yourself and what you want the audience to know about you? Hi, I'm Sam. I'm newly based in Brooklyn, New York. I am a musician, singer, songwriter, UI/UX designer, and freelance photographer. Also, on my naturalization certificate, since I became a citizen in the summer of 2020, it says divorced. 

Let's take a step back: could you pick a point in time to share the origin of how your creative pursuits started since you mentioned so many different parts of your identity? I find myself at a crossroads between many creative avenues and mediums right now—music, photography, design, or creating content. Whatever I do in my life that I love has something to do with creating something. 

And so, the day that started for me was when I was 12 years old; my mom got me a "birthday gift": a guitar. She just wanted me to start extracurricular activities, but that was the first time I got totally obsessed with something. I remember I broke my right arm within the first month of having that guitar. I wore this giant cast so that the first guitar had all these marks from my cast. That's how obsessed I was with playing guitar.

I was always the person who, while I had friends, also had a loner personality. I would skip lunches sometimes in high school and just go to the guitar ensemble room, pick up a guitar, and be that strange kid just playing in the hallway. That was when I found playing guitar was the place where I could retreat from my life.

In your present day, you're spending a lot of time creating. However, looking back at the moment you picked up your guitar, was that the first time you were learning to create or just experiencing it? Are you just jamming to play music versus playing the guitar to have a tangible outcome? I was just experiencing it for sure. I didn't know what I was walking into, and I just knew I had enough of a knack for it. And it was something that I could continue learning and almost build a relationship with that guitar. That led to this wonderful thing that keeps happening even today, where the music I played or connected with connected me to other people and friends I would make later in life.

[Playing music] led to this wonderful thing that keeps happening even today, where the music I played or connected with connected me to other people and friends I would make later in life.

When I first started playing, my mom signed me up for summer camp at church, where I found these worship leaders playing guitar. They brought me up to be a worship leader. And that exposed me to all sorts of relationships that I would build with music. In that church scene, you're not only playing music but also worshiping, whatever your faith might be. That was kind of a reflection of my life where music was something more than just noises that you made with an instrument or notes you're singing. It was something that connected me to something way bigger than life. 

Even today, if I'm playing a show or writing a song, I sometimes think back to those moments when I would "worship" and reach certain highs in music that you're not always able to reach or find in your regular life. Music always felt like something bigger than just myself.

Is creation also a form of communication? Or is it more connection with communities or whatever is around you? I would say it's a form of communication for sure. Because there are people I've met, before even saying any words to each other, we would have a musical conversation. I might play a few notes on the guitar, and they're able to swing something back with whatever they're playing or singing. And that's happened with many relationships. Fast forwarding to now, these are some of the best buds I have in my life. And that didn't mean those relationships didn't start because I went up to them and said, "Hi." It was literally just this instant connection where we were both having a moment. And having conversations with one another just via music? Yes. It's probably the closest thing you can get to, like love at first sight. Or love at first "hear"? Laughing

That's very different for me because I don't create any music but am a huge music consumer. That feels a bit more one-way than what you're experiencing: a full two- or multi-way conversation via music. I find that a lot of people have a favorite artist. I assume one of the reasons they love that artist is because they feel understood by that artist. That artist is creating songs that make the consumer feel understood. That's the same sort of feeling that you get when you're jamming or just in that creative space. 

I could be playing something. I look over, and a guy's looking at me, and he just nods his head or has a stank face on. And I'm just like, I feel understood. No matter what degree you feel understood by someone, this instant connection exists. 

Were there other creative pursuits that started around this time? Throughout all of middle and high school, I thought it was going to be just guitar, a bit of singing, and then also some writing. But guitar was certainly my main voice, the main boat I would take on my creative journey, and I didn't think I would do anything else. It was like when you were still living with your parents at that time, and your world was only as big as you know. You have less freedom to venture out.

After I graduated high school, my mom moved out to L.A. I moved in with my best friend's family because I wanted to live on my own, get my own room, and figure that out. So, I was still in Fairfax, Virginia.

At that time, I could not for the life of me figure out the transition period from graduating high school and what college to go to next. I didn't really apply to many colleges and eventually caved and decided to go to community college until I figured out what I was going to do. So, I went and studied music.

I figured it was like, "Well, what else would I do?" The logic for me was just, "Well, I'm going to do this music thing anyway." So, when I got to the community college, I ended up hating my professor. It was probably the format of learning for me that just wasn't very helpful.

At a certain point, I realized I didn't need [school] to do what I love with music. So I dropped out, and that was the first time I dropped out, and then I didn't know what I was going to do anymore. My best friend at the time was doing a lot of freelance videography, so I picked up a camera. I was like, "I'll try out some videography," but then I ended up just falling in love with still photography instead. And I instantly got obsessed with that and started buying lenses and figuring out what I liked.

Were you learning photography and videography on your own? Yeah, I figured out which photographers inspired me, like Trey Ratcliff. It was the first time I ever cared about anyone's photography style. He was a pioneer in HDF photography, which is when you take multiple exposures of a single image where it's underexposed, regular, and then overexposed. Then, you combine it all together, and what it does is give you this highly detailed, wide dynamic range. The highly detailed photo shows you everything in the shadows and highlights, and it provides this capability for a really overly colorful image—like stuff I would never edit today. But, at the time, I thought it was really cool. 

Then, I realized there was this whole world in both composition and post-processing. That was really cool because I figured out that when you take a photo and edit it, you express your reflection of that moment and what your perspective is. And so, that was a parallel to what I found in music where I was like, "Wow, this is how I self-express in photography." Especially in the process of editing in photography? Yeah, especially when you're editing. Composition matters because that's your style of how you're choosing to capture that moment. But there's this whole other world that's unlocked when it comes to editing.

What about design? How did you get into pursuing design? So, I did freelance photography for a while and would get these gigs on and off. It was one of the most fun phases of my life, and it enabled me to travel and just fuck around and have fun. laughing 

But then, it wasn't consistent income, so I was trying to figure out how to make it. Design was that solution because I talked to my cousin at one point, and he was a Graphic Designer at Lexus. And he was like, "If you're looking for something creative and trying to make money, why not try design?"

I went back to community college and started studying some design courses. I wasn't very good. I remember we had to make a vector sandwich on the first day of class. It was just about teaching you how to trace and create shapes and stuff. I remember thinking that my sandwich looked so bad compared to everyone else. So I was very behind and had to quickly figure out, "Okay, how am I going to survive this?"

Through photography, I had a really good eye for composition and figuring out visual hierarchies and how to balance certain elements. I also had a knack for typography and how to utilize it. As I said, I was a really terrible student, so I ended up learning design on my own outside of class.

I would skip some classes and show up to the presentation phase. And then, in the middle of that, I got an internship at a digital marketing agency, which eventually turned into a full-time job offer. 

I dropped out of school again because school was teaching me about print—which I loved the idea of more than executing. And so, I was like, "Well, I can just learn through this job." And that's what I did. It was an awesome experience because, through design, I had to learn a lot about what collaboration looks like and work with so many different roles, departments, deadlines, etc. That was probably the first time I fell in love with design because of the collaborative aspect of it. 

Were you collaborating through music and photography at that time? Not really. Music was the church band, which, of course, I had to collaborate on. But, I think for me, [music] was special because it was self-expression, and it was about letting something out from within me. Then, design was all about the client. I never actually experienced design in a way where it was just me creating something to just create something.

Do you think there's a difference between how music, photography, and design allowed you to collaborate and self-express due to how they came into your life? With guitar, it was more "try this" versus photography, and design came about as a way to survive. Is that still true today? For design, it is, in a way, a means to a living. One thing I like about design is that you can find a lot of design roles out there. There are so many places that need designers, and I guess that's where the true feeling of safety comes for me—in terms of making a living.

The reason I'm at my particular [role] now is because it also feels really good to do something that's actually making a difference in the world. A lot of our clients and the spaces that they're in are very focused on progressive movements, including social justice. And so, it feels really good to know that you're doing something positive. 

I asked this question because, as a designer, I speak candidly with many people about this topic. Product design is my day job, and I appreciate everything it's provided me. It's also something I've wanted since I learned about what it was, considering that it could bring me further in my career and life. But, at the end of the day, I don't think that's who I am or will be forever. 

It feels like a cop-out because I don't know what else to do or who I am, so I'm so attached to this role and identity. So, I always love asking other people, especially designers, like, "How did you know you wanted to be this forever?" Because I didn't, and I didn't even know the role until I stumbled into it. That survival mode kicked in for me as a kid with immigrant parents, and the amount of money one could make as a product designer was a big draw for me to do that rather than graphic design. Does any of that resonate with you? Absolutely. I completely forgot [to share] about this one chunk of my life where, between photography and design, I got married really young. 

I got married at 21 and divorced at 22. That was the period in my life when I realized that I already had been designing. But by the time I got married, I realized that design suddenly took on a very different role in my life.

And with design, I can see a path where I can figure out how to make even more of a living through design so it can support a potential family in the future. Design definitely had a very specific and heavier role in my life at a certain point. Heavier because it could afford you a certain life? Yeah, because it was the one thing making me real money. 

And so, I was like, "I gotta be really good at this now" because it's not just me alone anymore. Suddenly, it's me with my wife and our pets. I felt a lot of pressure then to perform really, really well and take myself more seriously, especially on the business side. That includes how I talked to managers and directors and learned how to put on a different face. A bit of code-switching? Yeah, because most of my life, I've been flying by the seat of my pants. And that was a moment where I was like, I can't do that anymore. I gotta follow through with this and this imaginary syllabus that I had in my head for how to be very successful at design. 

I don't feel that pressure anymore. I don't even know if I'm going to do design for the rest of my life at this point. 

So what happened next—what was the switch from where you were to where you are today? The switch happened once I got divorced. It took me really working on myself all the way up to the point where I was just like, "Okay, it's not just me; I'm living a very different life now where I'm trying to support other people in my life." 

And then all of that, just like poof—disappearing really, really suddenly. It was really weird for me. I'd been in this relationship for four years, and now it's just me by myself. I had an identity crisis because I was like, "Well, what do I like to do in my free time?"

I was stressed out when I was married because of those pressures, which taught me a lot. But, at the end of the day, it just wasn't good for me mentally. So when that mental space was cleared up, and I had to just focus on myself, it brought me back to certain things like music because when I was married, I didn't play much music. I had to come back full circle to music.

Walk us through that experience and how Umami House started. I was still in Fairfax when I divorced in 2019, right before Covid [the pandemic]. It was 2019 when I got back into music and realized I loved music. 

Around that time, I thought I was going to quit music. I was selling all my pedals and posted on social media [about it]. I can't imagine you doing this! I was getting rid of a bunch of guitars, and [our friend] Alfred replied to one of the stories that he was interested.

How did you meet initially meet Alfred? We were friends already because we met back in 2016 at an open mic. Alfred was still in college then and then moved to New York. We didn't hang out for a long time, and I was still single before my marriage when I first met Alfred. And then, after we first met, I went through my whole married life. Alfred went through his life in New York, and we had very separate paths. 

So when he replies to the story where I'm selling my pedals, he's like, "I'd love to check out what pedals you have." He came over, and while he didn't buy any, we jammed anyway. And I realized, at that moment, like damn, I still really freaking love playing and realized, shoot, I just sold some of my favorite pedals.

But it was great because I got to explore a totally different side of music. I had sold a lot of my gear and was stripped down to just one guitar, which was a Taylor GS Mini. It's not even full-size, and I don't think I even had a single electric guitar at the time. Real back to basics.

And that was when I started really exploring songwriting again because suddenly, it wasn't just about ripping it on the electric guitar. Which we know you can do! laughing Yeah! You know, like, all the distractions were gone. I had an acoustic guitar, my computer with Garage Band, and a lot more time with myself. And there was certainly a lot to write about, so that started a new era with music for me.

I approached it very differently. At that point, the guitar and I were going for round two, like in a relationship with someone, you know? You approach it very differently.

Were you more open to embracing your music to try something new? Or did you feel you had the same approach when you first picked up the guitar? I had a very different approach. I almost stopped caring about learning at that point. 

For me, musically, I cared a lot about learning. Whenever I play a show with this really good guy, I think about how I can't play as well as him and all this stuff. But at a certain point when I was in that phase, around 2019 and 2020, I realized I had all the pieces that I needed. I have a lot more to write about now. And so, let's see what we can do with it. And I never thought about it that way before. Once I acknowledged that, the ball started moving.

So, how did you and Alfred start Umami House? So we reconnected, and Alfred returned to the Northern Virginia area during Covid. Then, we started hanging out a lot. Eventually, I introduced Alfred to a lot of my friends, and then a lot of Alfred's friends and my friends started mixing. It was just very natural and more than just jamming together; natural friendships started happening.

Like, there was one day when no plans were made, and no one could have predicted this. It was a random Sunday afternoon, and Alfred asked me, "You want to go to New Orleans?" He wasn't thinking about New Orleans at that point, and I think we were just on a phone call, and I was like, "Man, that one time in New Orleans..." And then Alfred was like, "You wanna go?" I was like, "Yeah, why not?" We were both working remotely and went on this two-three week-long trip. From New Orleans, we headed to Colorado, Utah, and Vegas somewhere. Really freaking random.

Suddenly, this friendship had developed to the point where it was like, "Oh, here's another guy who knows how to roll with the punches and be spontaneous." Because, my whole life, I've been very "flying by the edge of my seat," and it was cool to find someone else who had that similar energy.

All the while, we're still jamming together occasionally. When fall eventually started, we became roommates. And by winter of 2022, we're in Montana at this bar in the middle of nowhere, and we're just talking about how we've been friends for this long, and we all play this music together. We throw a lot of parties, and at the end of the parties, we forget that we're hosting and play a lot of music. 

And so, we were like, "We're not gonna leave this bar until we come up with a name for this new band," That's how Umami House came to be. Then, from there, it was just figuring out, "What does this mean to us? Where do we want to go?" And we've been a duo ever since.

Why is any of this important to you overall? It's important to me because when I'm having day-to-day conversations with people, you're not always entering the deep zone with every single person...because that'd be weird or pretty intense. But whether it's music or creating some sort of story for design or photography, you're expressing yourself in a way that you can't always express with words to other people. 

For me, it's always been like a retreat. Or just this way to connect myself by creating that art. Otherwise, I don't know where I would put all that energy.

Is it a way to connect with yourself to then be able to connect with others? I will say it has always started with just being for myself and connecting with other people; things just happen naturally. Because you get to know yourself more through that process of creating. For example, let's say you're painting something, and you paint for hours and hours and hours. You take 10 steps back and look at that painting, and you're like, "Where the hell did that come from?"

And with songwriting, I'm trying to practice a lot of honesty when I write songs. There's this line that I heard once where someone said, "You know, if you feel like you're oversharing in a song, then that probably means that's good because that probably means that someone else out there will get it." That really stuck with me.

These connections with other people through music just naturally happen because I am trying to be honest with myself, almost overly honest. And when that side shows through whatever I'm creating, someone else out there really does get it because it's true and genuine. Because of most things you go through in life, there's a good chance that someone else has felt or experienced those things, too. But you never really talk about it. So, if you're expressing that through the art, someone else out there will hit their radar.

Because of most things you go through in life, there's a good chance that someone else has felt or experienced those things, too. But you never really talk about it. So, if you're expressing that through the art, someone else out there will hit their radar.

Let's talk assumptions. One assumption people may have of you, myself included initially, was that you're a full-time musician. Living in D.C., you get the "What do you do?" question almost all the time. More than New York? Way more than here. It depends on the crowd. Because I think there's this shared understanding across a lot of people [in New York] where we hate that question. You're self-aware about it. In D.C., that's all that other people cared about. So whenever people used to ask me, I used to answer, "UX designer." I didn't realize that I was doing it because of this, and that automatically gave me a card into a certain social circle or amount of intrigue.

And so, I used to do that and realized a lot of people back then didn't realize I did music at all. I just had this switch turn on in my brain where I was totally embarrassed by the fact that I create music and afraid they'd judge me for it. That's so different now. 

I made this conscious decision to be like, whenever people ask me that next, I'm going to say musician because that's what I want to be. That's what I want to be doing more of, and if I don't take myself seriously, then why would anyone else take me seriously? Even my Instagram has nothing but music on it.

I made this conscious decision to be like, whenever people ask me that next, I'm going to say musician because that's what I want to be. That's what I want to be doing more of, and if I don't take myself seriously, then why would anyone else take me seriously?

Fast forward, it's all flipped for me now. Now, a lot of people don't think that I do any design work, and they just know me as a singer or musician. A lot of people don't know that I work eight hours a day or more doing design work while trying to juggle everything else as well.

How do you balance it all? One of the misconceptions for those of us who have full-time roles and do something on the side is that it's continuous. For west & ease, people often ask, "How do you prioritize all of this?"

My usual answer is, I don't. I have no time, but I'll have spurts. For example, my last interview was in May 2023, and I only recently posted it in October. I didn't have any capacity to focus on it, and I'm finally getting my second wind for the year to try again. But many people don't know that they think it's continuous. 

So, do you feel a similar pressure or misconception around balancing and juggling all these parts of your identity? I feel some pressure, but I don't think it comes from other people.

It's anything but that for me. What you think is really obvious to you is not actually that obvious to most people out there. That definitely shows through design and marketing.

Part of the reason why people think that I am a full-time musician is probably because some of the branding I do around my social media is very intentional. It's still real stuff, but I'm being intentional about what I'm sharing. So I've never felt the pressure from other people. 

And how do you balance it? I...sometimes don't. laughing Sometimes there's like nothing I can do. There are phases where I'm doing a lot more. Most of the time, I'm doing a lot more design work than music.

But, this move to New York has been quite the transition. I had this problem in D.C., too, but like saying "no" to going out—I'm still really bad at that. I'm realizing these days that I just need to have time for myself. And I need a bit of quiet time because if you stop shaking the bowl, everything will just settle, and you get to figure out, okay, where is everything in my life again? So, taking more time for myself to create.

Switching gears—what advice do you have for your past self who started doing what you're doing now? "I know it doesn't make sense right now, but I promise it will one day." laughing I felt a lot of pressure when I was moving from music to photography to design. I went through, as creatives do, at least once a year, I went through so many identity crises. Like, "What the heck am I doing?" 

I know it doesn't make sense right now, but I promise it will one day.

There was a lot of worry about never being able to do what I love ever again. Or just worrying a lot about, like, "Who am I going to be like ten years from now?" And I would never have expected any of what's going on today, five or ten years ago. I would tell myself that it'll all make sense and just keep doing what you're doing because things come back full circle. Eventually, you'll learn what you learned during those times, and then, later on, it will come back to you. You'll look at it in the face again and be like, "Wow, this is just right."

I would tell myself that it'll all make sense and just keep doing what you're doing because things come back full circle. Eventually, you'll learn what you learned during those times, and then, later on, it will come back to you. You'll look at it in the face again and be like, “Wow, this is just right.”

And still, even now, there's so much I don't know what the heck I'm doing sometimes. But it's nice to look back, and you're just like, "Damn, these pieces really did come together." They are still coming together, but it's cool to see the progress.

Give us a list of the top 3 things you'd recommend.

My 3 tips for starting to learn photography!

1. Get yourself a prime lens! It can be really easy to get distracted by all the bells and whistles of your gear - so sticking to one focal length can really help you figure out your style as you're forced to move around and 'hunt' for the right shot. My first prime was a nifty fifty (50mm prime) and it was instrumental in helping me figure out my approach and which gear I really need next.

2. Don't be afraid of post-production/color grading - in fact, go crazy! 50% of the art is shooting and composition, and the other 50% is how you choose to edit your work to best portray how you experienced the moment. Every photographer has their own perspective on life and it's up to you on how you want to reflect that perspective.

3. Trust your opinion. There'll be a lot of people giving you advice along the way - some of the advice will probably be really helpful, but trust your gut and recognize that your opinion on the matter, matters. For example, if you want to shoot super blurry images and you feel something special out of it, why the hell not. If you want to make your photos super saturated because that gets you excited, lean in. Figure out more of where that excitement is coming from.

Favorite song or song you have on repeat at the moment?

"Call Your Mom" by Noah Kahan ft Lizzy McAlphine

Going back to what I was saying before about being honest in your songwriting, it's not just about being honest but also about being vulnerable and reaching for a vulnerable audience through songwriting.

This song does such a good job of that; it's talking about a moment where you're talking to a friend who may not be in the best mental state. They're probably really depressed in whatever situation they are in. The lyrics are examples of what you'd say to that friend.

It really hits you deep because it's certain lines that take you back to certain moments in your life where you're like, damn, I remember the times when I've had to say that to someone.

Enjoyed the Conversation with Sam Ray Lee? You can follow him at @samraylee and @umamihousemusic on Instagram. You can also listen to Sam and Umami House’s music on Spotify.

Sam is also passionate about giving back to Send Chinatown Love. 

Send Chinatown Love's mission is to respond to the needs of Asian-owned businesses by providing customized services and resources while also creating opportunities for our community to connect with these businesses. With all initiatives, Send Chinatown Love hopes to build a more resilient future for these businesses and NYC's Chinatowns. A donation was made to Send Chinatown Love as part of this Conversation. 

You can support Send Chinatown Love by donating directly.

Donate to Send Chinatown Love

So you might hear some mentions of Patreon, but switch that out with “Subscribe on Substack” and you’ll get the idea.

Interviewed in 2020. This conversation has been edited for clarity and brevity.

Welcome to a west & ease subscriber exclusive. west & ease is a collection of stories, sounds, knowledge, visuals, and "creative" work. Specifically, you're listening to an exclusive clip from a recent Conversation with Kevin Twohy. You can find our original conversation here.

Meet Kevin Twohy, an independent product designer helping early-stage startups go from zero to one. He shares with us how he got started in his career, how he's steered himself into the creative, independent world, and gives us insight on how to approach it ourselves.

For this exclusive, we'll hear directly from Kevin about a recent project he did with Hellosaurus. Hellosaurus is a new interactive video platform for kids to watch and play along with their favorite shows, truly reimagining screen time for a touch screen generation. Kevin shares with us how the idea came to fruition and walks us through the process from start to launch.

Bonus links: Kevin shared with us a few links during the chat, including:

• Kevin's tweet thread about Hellosaurus with visuals

• Nielsen Norman Group research on how to design for kids

• A book on how to Design for Kids

To learn more about Kevin and his work, check out his website at kevintwohy.com and follow him on Twitter @kevintwohy.

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Music by mariokhol from Pixabay

As we reflect on our conversations this year, we're reminded of the value of creating a space where we can share our experiences and perspectives. We've explored a wide range of topics, from the personal to the societal, and we're grateful to have had the opportunity to learn and grow together with our guests and readers. We appreciate all of you who have joined us on this journey and look forward to continuing to explore new topics and perspectives in the years to come.

Without further adieu, here is a recap of our 2023.

Our conversations

We spoke with five new guests, including:

Shaping life and career through family as a north star with Faraz Ahmad

Faraz Ahmad is a father, husband, brother, and a Senior Software Engineer at Netflix. He shares how his north star of providing for his family has guided him throughout his life and career to find safety and stability through resilience and a deep desire to learn. We talk about his childhood, the paths he chose, some stumbles along the way, and ultimately, how full circle many of his decisions have been in hindsight.

Finding your voice through honoring your strengths with Ashley Woodfolk

Ashley Woodfolk is a Brooklyn-based mom and a full-time award-winning writer of books for kids and teens. Ashley shares how her interest in children, books, and writing has driven her decisions as she navigated her life and multiple careers. From teaching to successfully publishing her debut novel, The Beauty That Remains, while working in publishing, to now as a mom and writing full-time, Ashley has learned to hone in on recognizing her strengths to make her voice and contribution to the world stronger.

Red Gaskell on striving for creative satisfaction through collaborations with friends

Red Gaskell is a Filipino director and photographer based in Los Angeles. He runs RG Studios, a production company focusing on branded content, commercials, feature-length films, and documentaries. He shares how he got started in the production world by diving into freelance and sharing his learning process with others. Along the way, he's found satisfaction through the ability to collaborate with friends. He hopes to continue to do so as he further explores the world of directing.

Embracing an international perspective through design with Jay Demetillo

Jay Demetillo is a Filipino-American designer whose career and life spans worldwide. He grew up in New York, making his first cross-country move to design in the early days of Silicon Valley. He eventually made cross-world moves to further experience and embrace living an international life. He shares his experience as he navigated his design career and the decision points that helped him expand his worldview while actively contributing to East and Southeast Asian communities.

On approaching the founder journey with our whole selves with Kirk Fernandes

Kirk Fernandes is the founder of Merit, which is where tech workers find mentors, get career advice, and connect with the best companies to grow their careers for free. Kirk shares his journey and inspiration for starting Merit and how he incorporates his whole self into his role as a founder. We deep dive into Kirk's interpretation of work-life balance, which he defines as spanning over a long period of time through investments in relationships and rejuvenation. He also offers a simple framework of how he keeps himself and others close to him accountable for the overall health of his company, physical self, and relationships with others. Ultimately, he offers not advice but his own experience to inspire you to make informed decisions for yourself, whether or not you're a founder.

Introduced Voice Notes

We introduced a new series called Voice Notes, where we expand further into different, more personal topics. Notably, sharing:

west & ease: the name

on how west & ease came to life

Mentorship and Your Career Journey

Cross-post of "Office Hours" conversation with get-merit.com

Shared subscriber audio and video exclusives

For paid subscribers, we also shared more exclusives this year, including:

Reflecting on our design journeys with Triệu Thanh Nguyệt (Tiffany Trieu) and Leslie Luo

[Video] Live guest lecture "Voices from the Field" conversation hosted at UC Davis Design 001 "Intro to Design" course

Voices from the Field Guest Lecture: Product Design Exercises

[Video] Live guest lecture by Leslie Luo for UC Davis Design 40C: Design for Aesthetics course led by Professor James (Jim) Housefield

🎓 Student? Get full access to this post for 20% off forever at https://www.westandease.com/student.

Designing for trust and safety with Jay Demetillo

[Audio] Jay Demetillo talks about his recent projects with Grab, a Singaporean-based tech company providing ride-hailing, deliveries, and financial services in Southeast Asia. Jay shares insights on how privacy and safety are crucial to ride-hailing services like Grab and themes and learnings from two projects: Audio Protect, which introduced audio recordings during rides, and Telematics, which focused on enabling and encouraging safe driving habits.

Donated to 5 organizations

With every Conversation, west & ease makes a small donation to a non-profit or organization of our guests' choice to pay it forward.

• Faraz Ahmad chose The International Rescue Committee (IRC) that helps people affected by humanitarian crises—including the climate crisis—to survive, recover, and rebuild their lives. Faraz believes in its mission to support refugees from different countries seeking a better life.

• Ashley Woodfolk chose Food Bank for New York City, which has been working to end food poverty in our five boroughs since 1983. As the city's largest hunger relief organization, we employ a multifaceted approach to helping low-income New Yorkers overcome their circumstances and achieve greater independence.

• Red Gaskell chose Heart of Dinner, whose mission works to directly address food insecurity and isolation experienced by Asian American seniors in New York City. 

• Jay Demetillo chose Inneract Project, a 501c3 non-profit organization working for over 18+ years to empower the next generation of Black, Latinx, and underrepresented designers of color.

• Kirk Fernandes chose The Bowery Mission which exists to promote the flourishing of New Yorkers overcoming homelessness and marginalization by providing compassionate services and a transformative community. 

Thank you to our guests for sharing their stories. With west & ease, we can support our communities and missions we're passionate about.

What's next?

We will continue to explore topics with Voice Notes, subscriber-exclusive audio and video formats, and, of course, delivering more conversations and behind-the-scenes pieces. We are excited about what 2024 brings us and hope you'll continue this journey.

Your support matters

Here are a few ways to support west & ease:

1. Become a paid subscriber and get all subscriber-exclusive content delivered directly to your inbox. Get a 7-day free trial for all paid plans at https://www.westandease.com/welcome2024. Offer ends January 31, 2024.

2. Already a paid subscriber? Consider gifting a subscription to a friend or donating a subscription for readers who cannot otherwise afford to monetarily support. 

3. Share your most loved posts with your friends.

@westandease is also on Instagram and TikTok; follow us for more updates.

Welcome to a west & ease subscriber exclusive. west & ease is a collection of stories, sounds, knowledge, visuals, and "creative" work. Specifically, you're listening to an exclusive clip from a recent Conversation with Jay Demetillo. You can find our original conversation here.

Meet Jay Demetillo, a Filipino-American designer whose career and life spans worldwide. He grew up in New York, making his first cross-country move to design in the early days of Silicon Valley. He eventually made cross-world moves to further experience and embrace living an international life while navigating his design career. Over time, his experience helped him expand his worldview while actively contributing to East and Southeast Asian communities.

For this exclusive, we'll hear directly from Jay about his recent projects with Grab, a Singaporean-based tech company providing ride-hailing, deliveries, and financial services in Southeast Asia. Jay shares insights on how privacy and safety are crucial to ride-hailing services like Grab and themes and learnings from two projects: Audio Protect, which introduced audio recordings during rides, and Telematics, which focused on enabling and encouraging safe driving habits.

Bonus links:

Jay shared with us a few links during the chat, including:

• Grab Audio Protect: https://soyacincau.com/2023/03/09/grab-rolls-out-audio-protect-to-help-solve-safety-related-ehailing-disputes/ 

• Grab Telematics: https://engineering.grab.com/telematics-at-grab 

You can learn more about Jay at:

• Embracing an international perspective through design with Jay Demetillo:

  https://www.westandease.com/p/conversations-with-jay-demetillo

• Learn more about Jay on Linkedin and Instagram @asianxjay.

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Music by ComaStudio from Pixabay